The State of Digital

FrantzM

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Hi

My last (late) analog components are no more. I will completely move toward digital, unless what I am looking for in term of pure music does not exist in digital format or the mastering job is really botched an, alas, too common occurrence. I have beginning to re-acquire some of the Mercury Living Presence that weren't on a HDD.
This thread was prompted by a Remark Audioguy made about Marty's ( I am right OB) system. A definitely and unashamedly digital system with room correction as well. I have no doubt that correctly done Digital right now is superior to analog. Several people have commented on an experience in which someone used a digital (CD?) Chain to copy LPs made from a Sirius TT; from most accounts the digital chain preserved what the LPs character which would suggest that the chain was truly transparent.
There is no doubt that our evaluation is very subjective but in order to make sense we need to interject some objectivity in the debate. Not objectivity in the sense of measurements. Being objective does not mean measuring at all cost, some things are not measurable. What we may need to do is to try to remove our emotions and prejudices from our observation. There are tools for that and one of them is the dreaded (for many “subjectivists”) double-blind test. I would simply call for a simple blind test, simply not knowing what’s playing and listen to a recording of an LP made through a good digital chain, some of these readily available in a decent studio. I would go with a CD-level first.
On a more realistic level, it came to me listening to the aforementioned Mercury Living Presence CDs. TO me the Digital tended to sound truer, closer to what I hear at a good concert hall. The Paul Paray and the Detroit SO playing Franck Symphony and Rachmaminov Symph. 2 Catalog: 434368 is prime example of how transparent the digitalizing medium was , when supervised by a masterful person such as the late Wilma Cozart Fine. And the long list of Reference Recording and .. TO me a long list. I can understand the nostalgia but I think Digital is there and going nowhere but up. There will be attempt at great TT but the medium has already reached its apogee. We can make the better TT we know how but the cutting lathe are not even that good and will likely not get any better plus the whole process is scientifically flawed , not that digital is perfect simply that it can get only better, it is has not plateau-ed, not yet anyway. I am ready to surmise that today’s DAC are getting better and less expensive. Several even in this forum can attest to the quality of the reproduction brought by something like the Apogee mini-DAC or the various Weiss Engineering products and there are others… The transport of choice , capable of trumping the best Transports we can muster seem to be an Apple Mac Book Pro with the Amarra software ( I have my reservation on the Amarra but this is for later)…
We are in living interesting times. I want to see High End Audio evolve not keep itself in obscurity and arcana. We have a very good medium, right there, right now. It should be exploited, High End Audio should push the boundary of what is possible in reproducing music in a home.. There is a lot to do in speaker design, even in truly digital amplifiers, speaker mechanical aberrations and limitations can be corrected with digital (ask Marty ?). By the way, I have nothing against tubes in amplification. I suspect they are doing interesting psycho-acoustically , I do prefer the better SS but tubes can be very realistic .. What I think is that digital has arrived and it should be embraced .. Your opinions? Viewpoints?

Frantz
 

soundofvoid

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Apr 22, 2010
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Digital is the future but is it better?A car of today is better than what it was 10 years before...
A cartridge of today is better than what was on sale 10 years before.
A cd mastering today is 10 times better than what they were doing 10 years before.
A violin of today is better than a Strandivarius?
A tomato that you buy today is bigger and more shiny that one you were buying 30 years before.Is it as tasty?
My point is that digital is the new reality but you should always keep you own organic garden aside when you want to remind yourself of the original joys of life!
 

MylesBAstor

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Digital is the future but is it better?A car of today is better than what it was 10 years before...
A cartridge of today is better than what was on sale 10 years before.
A cd mastering today is 10 times better than what they were doing 10 years before.
A violin of today is better than a Strandivarius?
A tomato that you buy today is bigger and more shiny that one you were buying 30 years before.Is it as tasty?
My point is that digital is the new reality but you should always keep you own organic garden aside when you want to remind yourself of the original joys of life!

Or new and improved isn't always better :)

Digital didn't exactly start off on the right foot by claiming perfection out of the box in 1980. And they always found another problem to blame. If your financial advisor were as wrong as digital pundits, you would have dumped them years ago. And how many times did we hear it was the engineers fault? They didn't know how to use their mikes with this new recording medium. Go back and listen to the early digital recordings; they actually sound worse now than they did 30 years ago; in contrast, people are still finding more and more on those treasured LPs as their systems improve. There's an upper limit to what digital can deliver. In particular, I find the upper octaves eg cymbals excruciating to listen to. I'll never forget buying the early CBS digital recording of Bernstein doing Shostakovitch's 5th and listening to it on the turntable (might I add highly touted for its sound by the reviewers of Audio and that ilk). I had to go and check that the record was turning at the right speed. There was absolutely no harmonic content or upper octaves. It was like all the music had been planed away. Frisbee material.

There's no arguing it's improved over the years. But so has analog! Digital is actually listenable in many cases esp. with tube based DACs. (to quote Dave Wilson, one needs tubes someone in the playback chain). And there's music that is still only available in digital nowadays so if you want to hear your favorite piece or group, you must buy the CD, etc.
 

soundofvoid

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Dear Myles,these are my thoughts exactly!Well said!(especially the part on the tube dacs)
 

FrantzM

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Myles

Yes, Digital was HORRIBLE 30 years ago, no doubt ... Perfect Sound forever was the largest pile of Marketing Bovine manure ever ... Allow me to switch for a few seconds to a different medium, early DVD, very early demo of DVD were as bad as it can get.. TPV ran an areticle by, I think Joe kane , in which he was talking how bad DVD was then, a few years later ... DVD is ...well ... good, better than S-VHS, better than LaserDisc... equal in quality to many professional analogue formats and is now surpassed by Blu-Ray which I must add is superior to ALL the professional Analogue Video medium ever devised ... Now back to Digital Audio. it would be wrong to equate CD with Digital Audio.. CD is but one of many digital Audio format .. It was known during the time of CD introducion that there were limitations, the mosto bvious one was the 44.1 Khz .. Despite all of these CD is eminently listenable. I would agree with you that 30 years ago, a cymbal crash on a CD was very similar to pulling a tooth without anesthesia, sound of the drill included but righ now, HONESTLY guys, prejudices aside, minds wide open Can you really tell me that Cymbals on CD is THAT bad, is not actually more than decent ... ?? Please ?! A properly mastered CD, those from say Mercury Living Presence or any CD from Reference Recording or some others ...On serious components such as the Burmesters ? DCS? Esoteric? EMM LABS? Jonathan Tin playback something (sorryforgot their names) ? The MBL? The Weiss Minerva? The PS Audio contraption? The list is very long..
Now we are past CD. There are a lot of software on 24/96 and Reference Recording has the HRx? Cymbals are as smoooth as any analgue and I would like like to conduct a test of a TT recorded on 24/96 or even better HRx and see how many time most if not all people would be fooled ...
I can understand the love, when one has 8~9000 (a staggering number, many would be happy with the margin of error, think about it 1000 LP!!)... I respect the love, I used to share it but this notion of digital being inferior is false.

Frantz
 

MylesBAstor

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Myles

Yes, Digital was HORRIBLE 30 years ago, no doubt ... Perfect Sound forever was the largest pile of Marketing Bovine manure ever ... Allow me to switch for a few seconds to a different medium, early DVD, very early demo of DVD were as bad as it can get.. TPV ran an areticle by, I think Joe kane , in which he was talking how bad DVD was then, a few years later ... DVD is ...well ... good, better than S-VHS, better than LaserDisc... equal in quality to many professional analogue formats and is now surpassed by Blu-Ray which I must add is superior to ALL the professional Analogue Video medium ever devised ... Now back to Digital Audio. it would be wrong to equate CD with Digital Audio.. CD is but one of many digital Audio format .. It was known during the time of CD introducion that there were limitations, the mosto bvious one was the 44.1 Khz .. Despite all of these CD is eminently listenable. I would agree with you that 30 years ago, a cymbal crash on a CD was very similar to pulling a tooth without anesthesia, sound of the drill included but righ now, HONESTLY guys, prejudices aside, minds wide open Can you really tell me that Cymbals on CD is THAT bad, is not actually more than decent ... ?? Please ?! A properly mastered CD, those from say Mercury Living Presence or any CD from Reference Recording or some others ...On serious components such as the Burmesters ? DCS? Esoteric? EMM LABS? Jonathan Tin playback something (sorryforgot their names) ? The MBL? The Weiss Minerva? The PS Audio contraption? The list is very long..
Now we are past CD. There are a lot of software on 24/96 and Reference Recording has the HRx? Cymbals are as smoooth as any analgue and I would like like to conduct a test of a TT recorded on 24/96 or even better HRx and see how many time most if not all people would be fooled ...
I can understand the love, when one has 8~9000 (a staggering number, many would be happy with the margin of error, think about it 1000 LP!!)... I respect the love, I used to share it but this notion of digital being inferior is false.

Frantz

I respectfully disagree :) Everyone has the right to their own opinion--that's even what makes for a good relationship. We don't have to agree all the time.

But let's put equally priced units against each other as when you're talking about 15-40K digital playback. But you've got tables such as the Continuum, Walker or something more modest such as my VPI rig and put an Ortofon A90, Dynavector XV1-t or ZYX Omega S LO Gold in it. With the ZYX, the vinyl rig acquits itself quite well against 15 ips 2 track tapes of the same recording such as the Hindemith VC (Decca), Arnold Overtures (RR) or Bill Evans Live at the VV (Riverside). And it the end, it's the fidelity of the LP to the tape (that's sent for pressing) that really in the end is the gold standard.
 

FrantzM

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Myles

I read you are bench pressing .. I will need some friendly advices to put some muscles on .. I have been trying for a while and the results are .. well .. not showing .. yet :)

What did I write you disagre with?
I would be the first to agree there are instances in which a given version of a piece is better on a given medium than on another but is it the medium wich is the culprit or the Mastering? We know the differences Mastering can play in the final product ...
On teh subject of prices, I would have agreed with you a few years (3) back .. Then a good digital gear capable of matching the best analog gear would have cost an arm and a leg ( believe me, I know, I used to own such a stack . The transport and DAC MSRP was about 25 K ...) 2010 .. A weiss Minerva or equivalent (Playback Designs? ) is about $5~6K, 128 GB of Solid Stae HDDK or am I msistaken and an Apple Macbook complete with Amarra and 8 GB of RAM would not run yo more than 5K, it doubles as an interesting, attractibe and powerful Laptop fully capable of Professional duties as well as anything else you would like to do with a Computer which keeps you around the $10 K mark ...
Now I would say that The gold Standard is that the data (in any form it might be) on the reproducing medium is equal to the data on the recording medium...

Life will forever be full of surprises .. Two years ago I was an ardent Analog defender .. Look at me now... :(

Frantz
 

MylesBAstor

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Myles

I read you are bench pressing .. I will need some friendly advices to put some muscles on .. I have been trying for a while and the results are .. well .. not showing .. yet :)

What did I write you disagre with?
I would be the first to agree there are instances in which a given version of a piece is better on a given medium than on another but is it the medium wich is the culprit or the Mastering? We know the differences Mastering can play in the final product ...
On teh subject of prices, I would have agreed with you a few years (3) back .. Then a good digital gear capable of matching the best analog gear would have cost an arm and a leg ( believe me, I know, I used to own such a stack . The transport and DAC MSRP was about 25 K ...) 2010 .. A weiss Minerva or equivalent (Playback Designs? ) is about $5~6K, 128 GB of Solid Stae HDDK or am I msistaken and an Apple Macbook complete with Amarra and 8 GB of RAM would not run yo more than 5K, it doubles as an interesting, attractibe and powerful Laptop fully capable of Professional duties as well as anything else you would like to do with a Computer which keeps you around the $10 K mark ...
Now I would say that The gold Standard is that the data (in any form it might be) on the reproducing medium is equal to the data on the recording medium...

Life will forever be full of surprises .. Two years ago I was an ardent Analog defender .. Look at me now... :(

Frantz

I might be mistaken but I thought the Playback Designs gear was around 15K.
 

audioguy

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Digital may be "better" but i LOVE listening to LP's. I am far from the super high end LP player owner (VPI TNT 3.5), but there is still something magic about listening to vinyl. Maybe it is desirable "colorations"; maybe it''s the ritual; I KNOW it is selection and price (that is part of the fun of vinyl -- finding great music in strange places). The cover art? the liner notes?

Vinyl loses hands down in convenience, since I now have a qSonix Music Server, but there is just something about the sound of vinyl that is more real. A demo I have done many times is the Sheffield Drum and Track Disk with Jim Keltner; I have them on vinyl and on one of the better quality XRCD CD's. I first play the CD and everyone goes "wow". I then play the vinyl and everyone goes dead silent. There is really no comparison...and no one believe vinyl can sound like that (everyone remember the pops and clicks).

I do not dislike CD. I love it for a lot of reasons but I love vinyl as well.
 

Mike Lavigne

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I have no doubt that correctly done Digital right now is superior to analog.

hummmmmmmmmmm.

i think when all things are optimal digital can come close to analog. but only close. not equal, and not superior. not to my ears. but others might hear things differently so allow me to use the word 'prefer' in terms of how i view analog to digital. i prefer analog even when digital is optimal.

'all things optimal' in digital is not usable as a consumer format. the ultimate digital format in my experience is DSD 5.6mhz (2xDSD). next best is regular DSD, then hi-rez PCM and then Redbook.

when i visited Bruce's mastering studio he easily demonstrated the effect on an analog imput when running it through all these various digital formats.

a good jump up from Redbook to 88khz and 96khz, another one to 176khz and 192khz, 384khz a little better. huge jump from PCM to DSD, then another significant jump to 2xDSD. then the final ahhhhhhhh when going back to analog.

every digital format made great music. this is not a good and bad issue. i love redbook, and have a hard drive full of excellent high rez PCM which i enjoy......and lots of SACD's which are better.

but only 'fully optimal' 2xDSD really gets close to my preference, which is analog. and 2xDSD is not really usable or likely to be as reality for the music we all listen to.

no; even fully optimal digital is not there.....and PCM at any resolution is not really very close. but it's a great way to listen and i'm not knocking it.

i'm a format junkie and listen to all formats daily. the truth is pretty easy to hear.
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
I recall a conversation I had with Andreas Koch several years ago shortly after the release of his and Jonathan Tinn's Playback Designs player. We talked about 2X DSD, 4X DSD etc. I remember Andreas saying that as we increase the number of times DSD sampling we approach analog
 

FrantzM

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They seem to have a DAC and a player witht he DAC built-in , the DAC seems to be less money .... around 7~8K .. I could be wrong ...

Frantz
 

FrantzM

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Mike

I don;t have the exposure you have to SOTA analog. I , however, have heard some pretty out of this world Digital including some far out experimental ones and they really are up there. I have heard a transfer of an anlog master tape to a 24/96 purist chain and without prior knowledge it was basically impossible to distinguish the two. I am not a big fan of DSD, personally. I do believe PCM can be as good and theoretically it is a better way to digitize. As for the fact that increasing the sampling rate becoming closer to analog, its seems correct intuitively when one looks at the graphs to make sense of what is going on in Digital ... but the truth is a little buit more different.. if the signal is a sine (not to be found in any instrument but hey .. We have to simplify to explain) .. just sampling at twice the frequency returns ALL the signal with no loss whatsoever ... Back to higher sampling . I was reminded to that by our eminent AmirM , here .. This comes with serious problem the increase in sampling and thsi is one of the problem with DSD.. it generates an incredible amount of distortion that has to be carefully filtered ...
I can understand where you coming form MikeL and I respect your opinion. Allow me to declare that the days when it was clear that it was digital, thus inferior are passed ... By the way welcome ...

Frantz
 

FrantzM

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Hi

I am not yet there but i would be very interested if some of you with uber-Systems among those I know MikeL and OB, would conduct a review of "modestly" priced DAC from say $750 to $5K and compare these to top-of-the-line in an as blind as possible protocol. AmirM could help you devise such a protocol.
I am interested in this test for those reasons:

  1. I have come to understand how strong our sighted biases can be. Keeping our objectivity is much more difficult than we think
  2. I am building a system that will be computer-based and relatively modest to play music for me for a year or 2.
  3. I am of the opinion that there exist more giant-killers out there that we, audiophiles, have been looking for. I am completely against the tendency to accept that more expensive is better in these days of constant and cheaper improvement in the world of Technology.

I think I am not alone to see such tests / reviews from you guys..

Frantz
 
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amirm

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It sure would be nice to conduct a large scale DAC comparison tests. It is very easy to do since the output is analog and hence can be switched instantaneously from one to another. As with Frantz, I definitely believe there will be some jewels there. I am happy to provide testing protocol if someone does have the means to compare. Subjective one-off comparisons are very hard to rely on in this space as the differences are too small to be remembered minutes later.
 

JackD201

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I'm heavily invested in Vinyl as well as Digital It has never been about what is better as far as I'm concerned. It has always been about the software. I've accepted long ago that each does some things better than the other. If the day comes when I can get my hands on even just a hundred albums of even 3rd or 4th Generation 1/4" tapes that I truly love, you can bet that at the very least, I'll resurrect my Dad's B77 I've got in the warehouse because being a studio brat R2R kills them both.

Fact of the matter is a lot of my LPs will never see CD form much less SACD or DVD-A. No disc, no rip, no file unless I record through a good ADC and into a good DAW in which case....no thank you. I just do not have the time. I listen to the radio in my car a lot so I still buy lots of albums by new artists. It's looking that in the near future new releases may not even see optical disc form much less an analog pressing.That leaves direct downloads. Here's the rub.

While I see the promise of an acceleration in digital's evolution now hampered in the market by "fixed" standards being unchained as the industry shifts to software and more open hardware, the current stumbling block remains the delivery system and the integrity and cost of storage media.

The question is, just as is the case with an original master tape, if we will ever get our hands on the music. Will the RIAA members ever sell master quality files knowing that any form of DRM can be cracked? It would be the pirate's dream. Hack a hi-rez file and sell it to the un-connected third world in disc form. We can hotrod our computers to our hearts delight but really just how many titles will warrant it. We'll likely be limited to smaller labels just as SACD is today or razor thin libraries like that of The Tape Project.

As such, I'm not ready to put all my eggs in one basket, although for purposes of practicality and convenience, I wish I could.
 

amirm

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Will the RIAA members ever sell master quality files knowing that any form of DRM can be cracked? It would be the pirate's dream. Hack a hi-rez file and sell it to the un-connected third world in disc form.
I don't think there is a pirate market for high-res music. Person buying such content doesn't care to have higher resolution than the CD or even MP3.

One of my dreams has been to create a high-fidelity music distribution service downloading none-copy protected titles. I am pretty sure labels will license them now. Problem will be that they will charge more than MP3s and worse yet, want $1m+ per label up front royalty payments. Question then becomes how many of you are willing to source such files and creating a big enough market to help pay for such a service. Previous ones like Media Giant went out of business (admittedly, they used DRM protected files).

So tell me that there is demand, what you would buy and how much, and someone may go and start a business to serve it :).
 

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