Who's right and who's wrong.

DaveyF · Sep 2, 2012

Today a fellow a'phile called me up and asked me to come and listen to his newly acquired CAT preamp. He was concerned that it didn't seem to be as good as he expected and wasn't better than the piece it replaced, a BAT VK5. So over I went and sure enough I had to agree with him, the CAT was asleep. My friend was VERY disappointed and was on the verge of saying that his new preamp was a POS.
So, knowing what this preamp can do I began to look for the cause.
It didn't take me very long to realize that there was a probable issue with some of the other ancillary gear that he was using...for the amp, an older ss McIntosh, cabling all older Monster cable which had oxidized, his front end was an old Denon CD player with a skipping laser! The speakers were NHT's of an older vintage.
I suggested that we try the preamp in my system to see how it would fair against mine, which although slightly older is IMO sounding as it should. The result was an eye opener, with my friend now beginning to realize that his older ancillary gear is at fault and not the CAT.
Makes me question how many pieces of gear have been unjustly slammed and for no other reason than bad synergy with the partnering gear.

Gregadd · Sep 2, 2012

There is nothing quite as intimidating as auditioning a friends ssytem.

FrantzM · Sep 2, 2012

Gregadd said:
There is nothing quite as intimidating as auditioning a friends ssytem.

And to have to tell her/him the truth ...

LenWhite · Sep 2, 2012

All of the following are key components of employing the "system foundation" approach to audio system setup. Without all of them in place one will never hear the full potential of the primary audio equipment.

- Symmetrical listening room positioning minimizing furnishings and equipment between and around primary speakers, front speakers positioned away from room boundaries with proper toe-in; equi-distance from listening position.
- Room acoustics to control sound reflections that "smear" audio and create spikes and nulls in the frequency response.
- Dedicated audio circuits with power conditioning to minimize electrical line noise.
- Synergistic cabling (PC's, IC's, speaker cable) to ensure design continuity throughout the electrical path.
- Resonance control to isolate all audio equipment electrical noise and vibration.

microstrip · Sep 2, 2012

DaveyF said:
Today a fellow a'phile called me up and asked me to come and listen to his newly acquired CAT preamp. He was concerned that it didn't seem to be as good as he expected and wsan't better than the piece it replaced, a BAT VK5. So over I went and sure enough I had to agree with him, the CAT was asleep. My friend was VERY disappointed and was on the verge of saying that his new preamp was a POS.
So, knowing what this preamp can do I began to look for the cause.
It didn't take me very long to realize that there was a probable issue with some of the other ancillary gear that he was using...for the amp, an older ss McIntosh, cabling all older Monster cable which had oxidized, his front end was an old Denon CD player with a skipping laser! The speakers were NHT's of an older vintage.
I suggested that we try the preamp in my system to see how it would fair against mine, which although slightly older is IMO sounding as it should. The result was an eye opener, with my friend now beginning to realize that his older ancillary gear is at fault and not the CAT.
Makes me question how many pieces of gear have been unjustly slammed and for no other reason than bad synergy with the partnering gear.

This is not bad synergy - this is simply a faulty system. And I know how these 30 years old Monster cable when they start looking dark greenish behind their transparent tubing!

amirm · Sep 2, 2012

All my old monster speaker cables have either conductors turned green, their jackets have gotten sticky or both! Some were only 10 years old and on the spool still. I have 30 year old generic cable that while stiffer, has not done either.

LL21 · Sep 2, 2012

DaveyF said:
Today a fellow a'phile called me up and asked me to come and listen to his newly acquired CAT preamp. He was concerned that it didn't seem to be as good as he expected and wsan't better than the piece it replaced, a BAT VK5. So over I went and sure enough I had to agree with him, the CAT was asleep. My friend was VERY disappointed and was on the verge of saying that his new preamp was a POS.

I suggested that we try the preamp in my system to see how it would fair against mine, which although slightly older is IMO sounding as it should. The result was an eye opener, with my friend now beginning to realize that his older ancillary gear is at fault and not the CAT.
Makes me question how many pieces of gear have been unjustly slammed and for no other reason than bad synergy with the partnering gear.

DaveyF - Great story! And very true. Lets face it...we're mainly talking about seriously good stuff here on WBF. Most mortals would say SOTA stuff. But what i have learned to appreciate over the last 2-3 years more than ever before...is how much building the system (which includes the room) really matters. When i first stepped up from a boombox to my first set of speakers...hey, any kind of newer, bigger, better equipment was an improvement. Synergy mattered somewhat less because the actual quality of the component was sooo much better than what it was replacing, there was really no contest and no point in debating synergy, etc. A pair of Celestions SL6si's sound better than a boombox...period.

But at the level you are talking about...system setup, room setup...all are so critical. I have been fortunate to hear some of the most expensive equipment in great showrooms...and i have heard systems cost much less that i preferred...because someone set up the 'lesser' system to tailor to my ear and how i like to listen to my music.

rbbert · Sep 2, 2012

Given how you describe the rest of his system, I'm at a loss to understand why he decided the preamp was what needed improvement?!

Although I don't have much Monster Cable, it's all more than 10 yrs old and looks brand new.

mep · Sep 2, 2012

This story sounds kind of funny. Davey's friend's system was bascially all junk. He goes out and buys a preamp which is way outside of the class of the rest of his gear and wonder's why the preamp sounds bad? This isn't a synergy type of question as much as it is misguided upgrading. Old, oxidized monster cables, crappy old Denon CD player with a skiping laser. I'm surprised we didn't read that the old NHT speakers had all of the dust covers and tweeter domes caved in. This was/is a sad system that no preamp on the face of the earth was going to fix by itself.

Andre Marc · Sep 2, 2012

DaveyF said:
Today a fellow a'phile called me up and asked me to come and listen to his newly acquired CAT preamp. He was concerned that it didn't seem to be as good as he expected and wsan't better than the piece it replaced, a BAT VK5. So over I went and sure enough I had to agree with him, the CAT was asleep. My friend was VERY disappointed and was on the verge of saying that his new preamp was a POS.
So, knowing what this preamp can do I began to look for the cause.
It didn't take me very long to realize that there was a probable issue with some of the other ancillary gear that he was using...for the amp, an older ss McIntosh, cabling all older Monster cable which had oxidized, his front end was an old Denon CD player with a skipping laser! The speakers were NHT's of an older vintage.
I suggested that we try the preamp in my system to see how it would fair against mine, which although slightly older is IMO sounding as it should. The result was an eye opener, with my friend now beginning to realize that his older ancillary gear is at fault and not the CAT.
Makes me question how many pieces of gear have been unjustly slammed and for no other reason than bad synergy with the partnering gear.

Installing a nice preamp like that in the system you described is like putting Pirelli tires on a Kia.

mep · Sep 2, 2012

Andre Marc said:
Installing a nice preamp like that in the system you described is like putting Pirelli tires on a Kia.

And not one of the new Kias. One of the old original Kia Sophias.

DaveyF · Sep 2, 2012

rbbert said:
Given how you describe the rest of his system, I'm at a loss to understand why he decided the preamp was what needed improvement?!

Although I don't have much Monster Cable, it's all more than 10 yrs old and looks brand new.

That's a good question, but the answer is known to me. This guy had asked me in the past which preamps I liked and I had gushed over the CAT's. He had simply gone on out and bought one based on my enthusiasm. I'm sure many of us have done the same thing.
I have to say that he isn't a very experienced a'phile and isn't nearly as much a 'hobbyist' as most of us here are.
Now I'm sure he realizes the problem isn't with the preamp.

Andre Marc · Sep 2, 2012

mep said:
And not one of the new Kias. One of the old original Kia Sophias.

Indeed. I don't know about anyone else, but I would have no problem telling a friend his system is garbage.

This can be objective, but what is not in question is 30 year old green cable and an ancient skipping Denon CD player. That is garbage.

Sammy T · Sep 2, 2012

Yep , Zr rated Pirelli's on a Yugo!

Sammy T · Sep 2, 2012

Yugo!

mep · Sep 2, 2012

Not to beat a dead horse here, but this guy inserting a CAT preamp into his system is like owning a really old beater car that burns oil, the suspension, shocks, and front end are wore out, the car has major dings and dents and has rust, bondo, and primer all over it, and somehow you think that if you put some new shiny rims on it the car is 100%

Keith_W · Sep 2, 2012

Absolutely not beating a dead horse, mep ... but inserting a CAT preamp into that system is like putting a brand new exhaust on a 40 year old Fiat which was lost in the Amazon, rusted to an empty shell, has anacondas crawling out the dash and vine through the radiator, and on top of that has been used as target practice by the drug cartel and finally sunk into the sea as an artificial reef - and wondering why it doesn't start. Nope, not a dead horse at all

They just forgot the WD40!!

Bill Hart · Sep 2, 2012

Keith_W said:
Absolutely not beating a dead horse, mep ... but inserting a CAT preamp into that system is like putting a brand new exhaust on a 40 year old Fiat which was lost in the Amazon, rusted to an empty shell, has anacondas crawling out the dash and vine through the radiator, and on top of that has been used as target practice by the drug cartel and finally sunk into the sea as an artificial reef - and wondering why it doesn't start. Nope, not a dead horse at all They just forgot the WD40!!

Funny.

DaveyF · Sep 2, 2012

All jokes aside about this guy's system, I have to wonder how many of us have fallen into a similar trap. We listen to a very good piece of gear and our system's aren't up to that level, so we don't like what we hear and therefore form an opinion of the piece that is in fact not correct. I have noticed on forums many posters stating such and such a piece is no good for this reason or that, or not as good as 'x'; when in fact what they are hearing isn't representative of the piece in question at all. An easy trap to fall into IMHO.

mep · Sep 3, 2012

Well Davey, you would have to define "that level" so everyone would understand what that means and what gear it takes to qualify in order to hear another piece of gear in your system that is at "that level" and be able to render a correct opinion about its sonic virtues.

Your friend's system was a no-brainer. I don't know anyone personally who has a system like that and jumped way out of their league with a single piece they bought. Does this guy even realize where he is at? Did he talk to you before he bought the CAT? Did you ever give him some advice on an upgrade path?

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