What preamp have I not tried?

MadFloyd

Member Sponsor
May 30, 2010
3,076
774
1,700
Mass
Still searching for the perfect preamp.

I've tried:

1) Pass XP-30: Lovely on classical music, but in my system bass is too thick and slow and there is no air around instruments (probably due to too much warmth).

2) Pass XP-10: Works well overall but a little too thin sounding in upper midrange/treble to keep me satisfied long term.

3) ARC Ref 5: Beautiful sounding and neutral. Maybe because it doesn't have deep bass, but acoustic bass is articulate. Instruments are nicely separated with sense of air around them. Unfortunately it's not transparent enough for my tastes (haven't heard tubes that sound natural on orchestral instruments).

4) Lamm L2 Ref: Beautiful midrange. In my system the bass is not articulate.

5) Ayre KX-R: Outstanding preamp with cleanest signal I've ever heard but very lean in my system and a little cold sounding. Highs were exciting but could get fatiguing after a while.

At this point the only other preamp I can think of is the CR GAT but I know it's tubes and single ended (I prefer balanced due to investment in pricey PAD XLR cables).

Any thoughts?
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,806
4,698
2,790
Portugal
Still searching for the perfect preamp.

I've tried:

1) Pass XP-30: Lovely on classical music, but in my system bass is too thick and slow and there is no air around instruments (probably due to too much warmth).

2) Pass XP-10: Works well overall but a little too thin sounding in upper midrange/treble to keep me satisfied long term.

3) ARC Ref 5: Beautiful sounding and neutral. Maybe because it doesn't have deep bass, but acoustic bass is articulate. Instruments are nicely separated with sense of air around them. Unfortunately it's not transparent enough for my tastes (haven't heard tubes that sound natural on orchestral instruments).

4) Lamm L2 Ref: Beautiful midrange. In my system the bass is not articulate.

5) Ayre KX-R: Outstanding preamp with cleanest signal I've ever heard but very lean in my system and a little cold sounding. Highs were exciting but could get fatiguing after a while.

At this point the only other preamp I can think of is the CR GAT but I know it's tubes and single ended (I prefer balanced due to investment in pricey PAD XLR cables).

Any thoughts?

After reading your comments I am afraid to suggest anything. I am still thinking how I should tell my ARC REF40 that is does not sound natural on orchestral instruments :) - I always found the way it handles instruments in very complex orchestral mixes is one of its best features.

Perhaps you can tell us what is your system - otherwise we will probably have more success suggesting ingredients for your minestrone. ;)
 

trh8654

Well-Known Member
May 29, 2010
88
1
351
Virginia
Two of my favorites
BAT REX
Veloce LS-1
 

Peter Breuninger

[Industry Expert] Member Sponsor
Jul 20, 2010
1,231
4
0
I would suggest a consideration of the Purity Audio Statement. Exemplary midrange, layered beyond belief. Not aggressive but with excellent low and high frequency extension. One of the 'New Breed" of preamps, and one of the best. It's playing, or should I say, Ornette Colman is playing as I type and I have heard nothing more real. Ever.
 

MadFloyd

Member Sponsor
May 30, 2010
3,076
774
1,700
Mass
microstrip: please don't be offended. We all hear differently. Besides, your Ref40 is two models up from the Ref 5.

My system:
Speakers/Amp/Preamp: Wilson Sashas / Lamm M1.2 Reference / Pass XP-10 / Lamm L2 Ref
Analog: TW Acustic Raven One / Triplanar / Dynavector XV-1s / Tron Seven phonostage
Digital: Berkeley Alpha DAC / Berkeley Alpha USB / JRiver
Cables/Power: PAD ICs, SCs / Shunyata VRay II, MIT Z-III PC

From Kitchen.jpg Rack.jpg
 

Peter Breuninger

[Industry Expert] Member Sponsor
Jul 20, 2010
1,231
4
0
Very nice room, sir MadFloyd. Very inviting.
 

asiufy

Industry Expert/VIP Donor
Jul 8, 2011
3,711
723
1,200
San Diego, CA
almaaudio.com
Best preamp I've heard so far, by a long strech: darTZeel NHB-18NS. Second best? VTL 7.5 mk2 (haven't heard the latest mk3, but it's probably even better).
The first is SS, the 2nd is tube.
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,806
4,698
2,790
Portugal
microstrip: please don't be offended. We all hear differently. Besides, your Ref40 is two models up from the Ref 5.

My system:
Speakers/Amp/Preamp: Wilson Sashas / Lamm M1.2 Reference / Pass XP-10 / Lamm L2 Ref
Analog: TW Acustic Raven One / Triplanar / Dynavector XV-1s / Tron Seven phonostage
Digital: Berkeley Alpha DAC / Berkeley Alpha USB / JRiver
Cables/Power: PAD ICs, SCs / Shunyata VRay II, MIT Z-III PC

MadFloyd,

Please understand I was joking - no offense at all. I usually prefer to have the amplifier and preamplifier from the same brand, so my first advice would be to try different cables. I recently changed speakers and amplifier and after many tries also had to change my speaker and interconnect cables. I have no experience with Lamm, so I can not suggest any type, but Lamm-Wilson users surely will chime.

And you room really looks nice - I also prefer rooms that do not look like control room to listen to music.
 

dan31

Well-Known Member
Jul 22, 2010
1,016
365
1,153
SF Bay
I'm sure most will respond with the preamp they own. My Spectral DMC-30SS series 2 is the best I have heard. I listened to the Ayre KXR and Esoteric C03 as well. As far as tubed units VAC seems to satisfy most owners.

Good luck wih your search!
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
14,411
2,509
1,448
Still searching for the perfect preamp.

I've tried:

1) Pass XP-30: Lovely on classical music, but in my system bass is too thick and slow and there is no air around instruments (probably due to too much warmth).

2) Pass XP-10: Works well overall but a little too thin sounding in upper midrange/treble to keep me satisfied long term.

3) ARC Ref 5: Beautiful sounding and neutral. Maybe because it doesn't have deep bass, but acoustic bass is articulate. Instruments are nicely separated with sense of air around them. Unfortunately it's not transparent enough for my tastes (haven't heard tubes that sound natural on orchestral instruments).

4) Lamm L2 Ref: Beautiful midrange. In my system the bass is not articulate.

5) Ayre KX-R: Outstanding preamp with cleanest signal I've ever heard but very lean in my system and a little cold sounding. Highs were exciting but could get fatiguing after a while.

At this point the only other preamp I can think of is the CR GAT but I know it's tubes and single ended (I prefer balanced due to investment in pricey PAD XLR cables).

Any thoughts?

Your comments have 3 criticisms which keep coming up: transparency, articulate bass and fullness (as opposed to thinness). Based on these criticisms of the above preamps...try Zanden 3000. Exceptionally transparent as to be invisible...being a Zanden tubed product its tonality is pure and full...but Yamada San has created his preamplifier to disappear...allowing his digital and amps to add the weight/fullness. I believe it is balanced. No remote though.

If you read the Marc Michelson and other reviews, he or one of the others compares with the Lamm LL1 REference...and also compares the Zanden mono amps with the Lamm ML3 Reference...so these are truly in world-class territory.

As for CJ GAT...i do love the pre, and its my personal favorite, having owned CJ for last 12 years straight. I understand you've invested in balanced. You could reterminate one end of the PADs...but then you wont be balanced anymore.
 

Bill Hart

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2012
2,683
174
1,150
This is tough because even if you can identify pretty accurately what a given line stage's strengths and weaknesses are, the end result is still so system-dependent. The Zanden is an interesting thought, given Floyd's stated needs and perceptions, though I haven't heard it. I also have an L2 Lamm and there is so much 'right' about the midrange, you overlook its 'dark' character and lack of extension at the frequency extremes. I'm also wondering if there is another solid state preamp that might do the trick for Floyd, but haven't a clue about the current crop.
 

Frank750

VIP/Donor
Jul 8, 2011
821
1
928
Don't have any recommendations since you already shot down my last 3 preamps but I do love that Joe Jackson album sitting at the end of your rack! Think I'll pull it out for a listen right now.
 

mullard88

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2010
948
62
1,588
Hi MadFloyd,

From my own experience with the Lamm 1.2 amps, my favorite pre amps for them are the Spectral DMC 20 series 1 and the Syd Smith modified Marantz 7 preamp. And have you tried using MIT ICs and SCs between pre amp and power amp and also from power amp to speakers?

Sam
 

JackD201

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
12,308
1,425
1,820
Manila, Philippines
The L2 Reference's output voltage is on the low side I had no problems when I used short ICs but when they had to drive 2 sets of Lamm hybrids with 2 sets of 12m runs, bass did become less forceful. Given my experience with my own 1.2 Refs, I'd say give he VTL 7.5 Mk3 a whirl. The Mk1 and Mk2 sound mechanical by comparison. The LL1 is definitely ballsier than my L2 Ref. If you have the rack space, it would be my first choice. I currently use a Valvet Soulshine with Telefunken 802s. I haven't tried this linestage in my own system but did a couple of listens to them with their partnering power amplifier: the Constellation Performance Series Preamp. They are Solid State and Balanced. Not sure why Balanced is a priority since the M1.2s aren't balanced amplifiers.
 

MadFloyd

Member Sponsor
May 30, 2010
3,076
774
1,700
Mass
Thanks for the compliments on the room and all the suggestions - much appreciated. I have some research to do!

JackD201: you're right - the amp isn't balanced; I guess I should have said that I just needed XLR outputs for my PAD Canorus IC's. I purchased a pair of adapters for them so I could try a single ended pre, but when I tried the adapters on my current pre it crushed the sound pretty bad so I'm not overly optimistic.

Sam: No I haven't tried anything but PAD cables to be honest.
 

rockitman

Member Sponsor
Sep 20, 2011
7,097
412
1,210
Northern NY
if your sticking with the Lamm amps, perhaps you should consider their reference 4 chassis preamp. I believe synergy between components from the same mfgr. matters.
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
14,411
2,509
1,448
Thanks for the compliments on the room and all the suggestions - much appreciated. I have some research to do!

JackD201: you're right - the amp isn't balanced; I guess I should have said that I just needed XLR outputs for my PAD Canorus IC's. I purchased a pair of adapters for them so I could try a single ended pre, but when I tried the adapters on my current pre it crushed the sound pretty bad so I'm not overly optimistic.

Sam: No I haven't tried anything but PAD cables to be honest.

If you are not running balanced, then you can easily reterminate one end to RCA...and avoid the adaptors. I run SE to XLR and had my ICs reterminated at one end with Xhadow XLR by the manufacturer at my request.
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
14,411
2,509
1,448
if your sticking with the Lamm amps, perhaps you should consider their reference 4 chassis preamp. I believe synergy between components from the same mfgr. matters.

+1. I run CJ GAT to Gryphon Colosseum (SE tube pre to Balanced Class A SS)...but what Rockitman says makes sense to me, particularly with Lamm where both components are world-class by all accounts. Good luck.
 

JackD201

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
12,308
1,425
1,820
Manila, Philippines
If you are not running balanced, then you can easily reterminate one end to RCA...and avoid the adaptors. I run SE to XLR and had my ICs reterminated at one end with Xhadow XLR by the manufacturer at my request.

The M1.2s have psuedo balanced XLR inputs that can accept balanced signals as well as 2 RCA inputs, one phase inverted. No need for adapters :)
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing