Deep groove - shaded dog vs. classic reissue grooves

rockitman · Aug 26, 2012

What advantages are there with deep groove old pressings ?

Are modern stylus/carts at a disadvantage playing deep grooves ?

I am trying to understand the advantages/disadvantages if any regarding deep groove vs modern reissue pressing grooves Classic Records specifically. TIA

Bill Hart · Aug 26, 2012

rockitman said:
What advantages are there with deep groove old pressings ?

Are modern stylus/carts at a disadvantage playing deep grooves ?

I am trying to understand the advantages/disadvantages if any regarding deep groove vs modern reissue pressing grooves Classic Records specifically. TIA

Christian- this will reveal my ignorance rather than answer your question, but when i've heard of references to 'deep groove' it usually referred to an artifact of the label area of the record on various issues- like an indent in the label area-which somehow tied with their vintage or pressing plant, and may have a correlation to preferred pressings. That is, it did not refer to the depth of the groove in the playing surface itself. (I'll ignore the dreaded Dynaflex here). Of course, this may just reveal the limits of my knowledge, so let's wait for a real collector to chime in- me, i just own a bunch of records and listen to 'em.

rockitman · Aug 26, 2012

Ok, so it's a deep center of the record area..not the groove depth. Silly me. Thanks whart.

Bill Hart · Aug 26, 2012

rockitman said:
Ok, so it's a deep center of the record area..not the groove depth. Silly me. Thanks whart.

I may be wrong. Let's see- there are others on this site that are likely far more knowledgeable than me on the subject. I know some of the old Mercury and Verve records had that indent, and I think it signified an earlier pressing at a specific plant.

MylesBAstor · Aug 26, 2012

whart said:
I may be wrong. Let's see- there are others on this site that are likely far more knowledgeable than me on the subject. I know some of the old Mercury and Verve records had that indent, and I think it signified an earlier pressing at a specific plant.

That's how I understand it.

From Steve Hoffman's site: http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/archive/index.php/t-146407.html

Check out the Penndorf page with pics.

DaveyF · Aug 27, 2012

whart said:
Christian- this will reveal my ignorance rather than answer your question, but when i've heard of references to 'deep groove' it usually referred to an artifact of the label area of the record on various issues- like an indent in the label area-which somehow tied with their vintage or pressing plant, and may have a correlation to preferred pressings. That is, it did not refer to the depth of the groove in the playing surface itself. (I'll ignore the dreaded Dynaflex here). Of course, this may just reveal the limits of my knowledge, so let's wait for a real collector to chime in- me, i just own a bunch of records and listen to 'em.

That's a pretty good description. The Blue Note Lexington Ave pressings are typically all deep groove ( signifying first pressings) and IMHO are all superb sounding. They are all mono. The W 63rd pressings are a mix of stereo and mono. The deep groove generally indicates an early pressing with these as well ( there are a few that are deep groove on one side and not on the other ) I play both the Lex Ave pressings and the W 63rd on my TT at 33 1/3 with my stereo cartridge with no problem. A mono cartridge may be better, but I'm happy with what I have. Same applies for the Prestige deep groove recordings, etc.

Comparing LEX Ave pressings or early W63rd to re-issues is an interesting thing, to my ears the originals are simply superior. ( Albeit,re-issues have far less background noise

).

MylesBAstor · Aug 27, 2012

DaveyF said:
That's a pretty good description. The Blue Note Lexington Ave pressings are typically all deep groove ( signifying first pressings) and IMHO are all superb sounding. They are all mono. The W 63rd pressings are a mix of stereo and mono. The deep groove generally indicates an early pressing with these as well ( there are a few that are deep groove on one side and not on the other ) I play both the Lex Ave pressings and the W 63rd on my TT at 33 1/3 with my stereo cartridge with no problem. A mono cartridge may be better, but I'm happy with what I have. Same applies for the Prestige deep groove recordings, etc.

Comparing LEX Ave pressings or early W63rd to re-issues is an interesting thing, to my ears the originals are simply superior. ( Albeit,re-issues have far less background noise).

You must have been luckier than me. Almost all of the jazz LPs, early pressings included, are trashed. In fact, I have yet to find a jazz LP dealer that accurately grades their LPs. Mint for jazz would be G- for classical.

jadis · Aug 27, 2012

I like the RCA shaded dogs much better than the Classic Reissues. I try to look for the earliest matrix stampers, 1s/1s on both sides and for me, they sound more natural than the CR reissues which I feel like it's over-mixed and can sound hard when compared to the originals. I do not know technically how the deep grooves connect to the sonic characters of each though.

DaveyF · Aug 27, 2012

MylesBAstor said:
You must have been luckier than me. Almost all of the jazz LPs, early pressings included, are trashed. In fact, I have yet to find a jazz LP dealer that accurately grades their LPs. Mint for jazz would be G- for classical.

I have been very lucky with most of mine. However, I do agree that many of the early jazz pressings are noisier than the classical early pressings. There's a good reason for this: the jazz was typically played far more on the gear of the time ( the typical changer or worn cartridge) than the classical. I can usually listen through the background hash and concentrate on the music.
As an example, i own a BLue Note Lex Ave Miles Davis Vol 1 with a perfect cover and with four VERY large scratches across side A. To look at the record, you would think it is trashed....Not so, it plays through and sounds great. Yes, I'm sure there is far more noise/hash than a mint copy, of which I have seen one ( not heard it) in nearly 40 years of collecting!

rockitman · Aug 27, 2012

noise is a problem fo me. My entire collection is NM or better. I think I would rather have a virtually silent classic reissue than a noise prone old original...especially classical where it gets so quiet musically at times.

DaveyF · Aug 27, 2012

rockitman said:
noise is a problem fo me. My entire collection is NM or better. I think I would rather have a virtually silent classic reissue than a noise prone old original...especially classical where it gets so quiet musically at times.

Agree, BUT it depends on the type of music as you say. In the classical area, I have found that most of the Mint to even G++ are fine, depending on the piece. Small ensemble pieces are typically not good if there is background hash. My example of the jazz piece above is fairly typical....
OTOH, I have several so-called new or mint reissues that are also noisy and those have no excuse..to me far more difficult to listen through those problems

.

Bill Hart · Aug 27, 2012

I guess beatniks didn't really care....

MylesBAstor · Dec 24, 2012

http://londonjazzcollector.wordpress.com/record-labels-guide/labelography-2/the-blue-note-labels/

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