JRiver MC Version 18
- Thread starter Ki Choi
- Start date
Great to hear you got it working.... Need some files to test it out??
Do bears sh_t in the woods?
I have updated my license to the latest MC18 from 17. And it has a serious bug: When you click on Rew (or <<) button, it freezes up and outputs digital full scale to my Mytek...
So watch out.
"
The total amount of data from this conversion grows by 8x, so the process is effectively lossless / perfect." Jriver is circumventing the argument of DSD to PCM conversion losing something in the conversion.
I think you might be mixing up the quoteDo bears sh_t in the woods?
"Are bears catholic & does the Pope sh1t in the woods"
BTW, I don't know why anybody would support a product (JRiver) that openly & blatantly has a vendetta against another product (Jplay) and publicly calls it a hoax. This to me is so stupid on so many fronts that it borders on insane, particularly for a product that works in synergy with JRiver.
Anyway, the world is comprised of many types & some companies seem to still operate despite their best efforts to destroy themselves.
I own jplay and jriver. I don't have a problem with jriver expressing their view in connection with THEIR software. What's wrong with a manufacturer making recommendations about how their product should be used? Btw, Matt Ashland has done this sort of thing before when a software designer made a remote control app for jriver without their approval.
Absolutely agree that every manufacturer has a right & duty to suggest the best operation conditions for their product but that doesn't mean they can or should (or that it's even wise) to publicly call another product a "hoax" on many forums. This is very bad form in my view & demonstrates a closed-minded view & a bad reflection of the company's owners.
I have been informed recently by one of my customers as follows: "I bought jplay the other day. I installed on my pc (and my microsoft surface pro) and strange things started happening and I keep getting re directed by jriver MC18 to a site that says that jplay is a hoax and I should uninstall." A posting by him on JRiver's board asking about Jplay's operation with JRiver was removed.
This really is bad Ju-ju
I saw the same thing too. I don't think they used the word "hoax" though. I honestly can't discern any major differences using jplay anyway so I disabled it and noticed the sound was a little better without it. Maybe there's something about the new version of jriver that makes this the case.
Here is my two cents:
Disclaimer, I own J River, I only use it occasionally, and I have never heard or used JPlay. I am
totally neutral, and I am just playing devil's advocate here...
-Jriver, if they are hostile towards Jplay, it may be because the very exsistance of Jplay is an indictment
of Jriver..meaning, if a $100 add on is needed to make Jriver, which costs $50, to sound its best, it must
be real crap.
-To be totally fair, I have seen countless posts through the years on various forums about people hearing no
difference with Jplay and basically calling it voodoo.
-The only formal reviews I have seen of Jplay are by reviewers that I know to hype up immensely the so called
differences in various components, set ups, cables, and software. They shall remain nameless.
Again, want to stress, I have NO opinion on Jplay and that I generally agree it is not the best idea
for Jriver to take issue with it. However again, by giving legitimacy, they are admitting there is something wrong
with their product.
I disagree, Andre - the market will always decide on whether a product has value or not. A manufacturer cannot censor users opinions. A right-thinking manufacturer would listen to user feedback (there are enough that say Jplay makes a difference to the sound of JRiver) & either do something to improve their product or work quietly trying to improve it. The arrogance of trying to suggest that there can be no improvement in the sound of your product is beyond belief.
So you're framing of "something wrong with their product" is the wrong thinking that JRiver are also falling into. There is just a better sounding product out there - why should there not be? If it's because bits are bits theory, we are into even more arrogance to further back up arrogance.
There are many products that sound better than mine. Do I rubbish them? No, I try to understand why & try continually to learn. It takes some level of arrogance to be under the illusion that one knows all there is to know about computer audio playback.
Yes, I've seen numerous posts about Jplay not making any difference including some from JRiver owners. But the accusations of HOAX is bringing it to another level altogether. I picked up on it here http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=138194
So you're framing of "something wrong with their product" is the wrong thinking that JRiver are also falling into. There is just a better sounding product out there - why should there not be? If it's because bits are bits theory, we are into even more arrogance to further back up arrogance.
There are many products that sound better than mine. Do I rubbish them? No, I try to understand why & try continually to learn. It takes some level of arrogance to be under the illusion that one knows all there is to know about computer audio playback.
Yes, I've seen numerous posts about Jplay not making any difference including some from JRiver owners. But the accusations of HOAX is bringing it to another level altogether. I picked up on it here http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=138194
I did go back to the JRiver thread at the time & saw the "Jplay is a hoax" statement which they have now cleaned up, it would seem. My customer also seems to get re-directs to this message from within his JRiver product.
Totally agree they ultimately they should keep silent. Better to say nothing than attack Jplay.
But certainly we cannot expect an endorsement...again, it would be Jriver admitting their product is flawed.
Apple has NEVER commented on third party ad ons and that is smart of them. Now that may be because they collect
licensing fees or a cut if it is an app. I dunno.
Again, I have NO idea if Jplay works!
Lastly, yes, if they called a "hoax", in my opinion, that is a mistake.
I wonder if anyone knows the working relationship between Jplay and Jriver..perhaps
there is some personal antagonism there, hence Jrivers proactive negative stance?
Or maybe jriver doesn't want its product used in a way that makes it not function as intended or even sound worse.
Is that your experience or are you just throwing conjecture out there as a possible reason/excuse for JRiver's behaviour?
Would that mean that Jplay could be called a "hoax" - would there not be a more suitable term to use? The meaning of hoax is that it has absolutely no effect. Your statement seems to suggest it does have an effect but again I don't know on what basis you are making this statement - experience or conjecture?
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Just stumbled into this thread .. How does one prove that JPlay does sound better? If there is no provable way then the field becomes wide open for qualifications with negative connotations things like "hoax" and "snake oil". . DBT looks IMO like the method that would likely stand in a court of law (to me, I repeat) .. In such an hypothetical case and under DBT conditions do you think JPlay could be proven to be superior? This is one of the conundrum of High End Audio : Proving that product A actually sound better than B...
In this commercial context "hoax" is just code language for "fraud", "scam" or "snake-oil". I think JRiver is avoiding this language to avoid exposure to litigation.
But ladies and gentlemen of the jury, ultimately the joke (hoax!) is on us. If all the resident audiophiles and other assorted experts with their golden ears and finely tuned six figure systems cannot agree on whether Jplay actually improves or deteriorates sound quality or does diddly squat to it, what does that say about our hobby......
I would parse the situation this way:
1. Objective macro level fidelity. At this level, it is easy to prove that jplay makes no difference. Bits get out the same way bits get out using Jriver. Calling it hoax in this school of thought is defensible, albeit in bad taste.
2. Objective micro level fidelity. This is where we look at timing of the bits, noise radiating from PC, etc., bleeding into DAC. It might seem that we can put value behind Jplay in this model of the universe. But I have a hard time accepting this validates performance of Jplay. There is no way an app on a PC can ever control what all a PC does. The operating system is in charge and there is so much asynchronous activity going on, outside of the control of the playback app, that no argument in my opinion can easily stick that there is an improvement. For all we know, changing how things work, may make it worse, not better! So on this front, I think Jriver may be 90% right if not 100%.
3. Subjective fidelity. Anything goes here. Problem is what Frantz says. If we don't believe in DBT, then there is no proof one way or the other. So in this case we could say Jriver is 50% wrong, and 50% right.
As far as I can tell, Jriver folks live in land of #1 so in that regard, it is perfectly justifiable for them to say what they said since countless other people believe in the same view of the world. Even if they traveled to #2, I believe the weight of evidence is on their side. No one has shown objectively how the PC acts differently on the output of the DAC when the playback pipeline is changed with Jplay.
Note that this is no the same as analog vs digital. In that argument, huge number of parameters are changed. Here, the bits themselves cannot change. And the system remains digital in both cases. So in this regard, I don't leave as much room for #3 argument as I would in other cases.
1. Objective macro level fidelity. At this level, it is easy to prove that jplay makes no difference. Bits get out the same way bits get out using Jriver. Calling it hoax in this school of thought is defensible, albeit in bad taste.
2. Objective micro level fidelity. This is where we look at timing of the bits, noise radiating from PC, etc., bleeding into DAC. It might seem that we can put value behind Jplay in this model of the universe. But I have a hard time accepting this validates performance of Jplay. There is no way an app on a PC can ever control what all a PC does. The operating system is in charge and there is so much asynchronous activity going on, outside of the control of the playback app, that no argument in my opinion can easily stick that there is an improvement. For all we know, changing how things work, may make it worse, not better! So on this front, I think Jriver may be 90% right if not 100%.
3. Subjective fidelity. Anything goes here. Problem is what Frantz says. If we don't believe in DBT, then there is no proof one way or the other. So in this case we could say Jriver is 50% wrong, and 50% right.
As far as I can tell, Jriver folks live in land of #1 so in that regard, it is perfectly justifiable for them to say what they said since countless other people believe in the same view of the world. Even if they traveled to #2, I believe the weight of evidence is on their side. No one has shown objectively how the PC acts differently on the output of the DAC when the playback pipeline is changed with Jplay.
Note that this is no the same as analog vs digital. In that argument, huge number of parameters are changed. Here, the bits themselves cannot change. And the system remains digital in both cases. So in this regard, I don't leave as much room for #3 argument as I would in other cases
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They did. Matt Ashland may be a good program writer, but he certailny lacks some basic PR skills. If I was Matt Ashland, I would refrain from posting any comments.
What I was talking about was the jriver wiki message pop up when i started jriver with jplay a couple of days ago. I don't recall the "hoax" appearing in that message. I recall it saying something like jriver doesn't recommend using jplay because it creates unnecessary processes and some other stuff. I don't know what Matt said on some other forum.
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