Stereo vs. Mono Bass

RBFC

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I've had a couple folks mention to me that I should try wiring my twin JL Audio F113 subwoofers so that I get stereo bass. I could run separate output cables from my pre/pro to the subs and use their built-in crossover/rolloff feature, while running my main speakers full-range. The benefit would be having no crossover circuitry in the main speakers' path, and that I would get stereo bass.

Others have said that bass < 80Hz or so is completely non-directional, and that there is no point to stereo bass.

I'd be interested to hear (pun intended) what you all think about this!

Lee
 

DonH50

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Many years ago, and I have no proof (I thought there was a write-up in AES or Audio but have not found it) so take it FWIWFM, I helped set up and participated in a test to determine the localization of subwoofers. It was a bear to set up, and we used a combination of in-room and outside (field out back) testing. Measurements were taken to level match subs to 0.1 dB (what a pain!) and keep the FR flat from roughly 40 to 120 Hz. The room was well-treated. We performed listening tests with a variety of people over several weeks. Among other things, we were trying to see how high/low people could tell the position of a sub. We used filtered pink noise and test tones.

The results were that virtually everybody could point to the sub at around 100 Hz, and essentially nobody at 50 Hz. In-between was a gradient, with 70-80 Hz actually about the point at which most people could no longer tell where the sub was in the room (or field). IIRC we went in 10 Hz steps, mainly to keep the test to a reasonable time. Similar tests were run in a few other places around the country.

I have run stereo, dual-mono, and mono (single) subs at various times in my system. I have always preferred stereo, but am sure at least part of that is because I was on the low end of the testing (around 60 Hz) and perhaps more because crossovers are not perfect "brick wall" filters. Crossed over at 60 Hz means there is still content at 70, 80, 100 Hz... When the test was run DSP was not around, and the highest-order analog filters generally in use were only 12 - 18 dB/octave.

Even dual-mono subs can be of benefit in a room since independent placement can help reduce the impact of room modes at the listening position.

FWIWFM - Don
 

GaryProtein

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I would agree with Steve.

Around 40 Hz or so the sub becomes harder to localize, and with the JL, that also means setting the slope at 12 or 48 dB/octave.
 

DonH50

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I too prefer lower crossovers, but since most speaker's distortion rises rapidly with large LF signals I also like to roll off the mains. My panels have less displacement (though more area) than conventional dynamic speakers, and the whole HT thing with massive bass has me happy I was able to return to active sub crossover (thanks to Mark who provided me a crossover for my system; my old one is buried and as a custom design not suited to my present system). I cross over around 45 - 50 Hz using a L-R response at 24 dB/octave to roll off the sub (LPF) and mains (HPF). My sub has a phase knob so I was able to time-align the sub to the mains at the crossover point.

In Steve's case, using those beasts full-range is not an issue, just aligning everything so the subs and mains do not corrupt in-room response by their interactions.
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
I too prefer lower crossovers, but since most speaker's distortion rises rapidly with large LF signals I also like to roll off the mains. My panels have less displacement (though more area) than conventional dynamic speakers, and the whole HT thing with massive bass has me happy I was able to return to active sub crossover (thanks to Mark who provided me a crossover for my system; my old one is buried and as a custom design not suited to my present system). I cross over around 45 - 50 Hz using a L-R response at 24 dB/octave to roll off the sub (LPF) and mains (HPF). My sub has a phase knob so I was able to time-align the sub to the mains at the crossover point.

In Steve's case, using those beasts full-range is not an issue, just aligning everything so the subs and mains do not corrupt in-room response by their interactions.


It took me 3 months to dial in the subs where I felt I was close
 

DonH50

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Three months, ouch! By ear, measurements, both? I tweaked mine with a little of both, but their placement is pretty fixed in my small room, eliminating a huge variable (I did play with position somewhat). My present measuring SW uses a combination of time (impulse response) and frequency domain analysis so it helped in dialing in the subs. I have in the past roughed in the phase/delay at the crossover point, then adjusted for best FR away from the crossover frequency, then finally dialed in the phase at the crossover so the mains and sub were seamless at the crossover point. The only pain is when the crossover is at a room mode, making it harder to optimize the response since phase/time delay and FR becomes a function of aligning the sub and main phase _and_ dealing with the room mode that alters the amplitude.
 

GaryProtein

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It took me 3 months to dial in the subs where I felt I was close

I bet you started with a high crossover point and went down. Everybody does!

You should have started LOW and raised it, stopping when they became too audible.

That would have saved a lot of time!
:D
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
I did start low Gary

I was always between 40-50 Hz but my Type A personality took me 3 months so no time saved. I am well aware as to how to cross a sub but because of the position of the 2 Gotham subs relative to my X-2's (sorry if that made you shudder Gary ;)), time delay etc took much longer
 

LL21

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I've had a couple folks mention to me that I should try wiring my twin JL Audio F113 subwoofers so that I get stereo bass...Others have said that bass < 80Hz or so is completely non-directional, and that there is no point to stereo bass. I'd be interested to hear (pun intended) what you all think about this! Lee

I think another reason for stereo bass is different from localizing the bass. It has to do with 2 subs being able to deliver a smoother response throughout the listening room. In an extreme example, put the sub right next to you...and then stand across the room and listen again. With 2 subs at the right points, i am told that, despite the complexity of setup, ultimately 2 can be a superior solution to get a smooth response...some Forum members have cited papers which show an ideal number of 4 subs in a room.
 

DonH50

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See the last line of my first post. ;) They actually do not need to be stereo; it's the positioning that helps tame room modes, not the fact that they are stereo. They do need independent level and phase/delay control for optimal results, but the same signal can be fed to both.
 

LL21

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See the last line of my first post. ;) They actually do not need to be stereo; it's the positioning that helps tame room modes, not the fact that they are stereo. They do need independent level and phase/delay control for optimal results, but the same signal can be fed to both.

I always under the impression that it would be better to have 2 or 3 well positioned subs than just one well positioned sub. I admit...i have never done it because i dont have the room. I always have used just one. But i was always under the impression multiple subs allowed for the smoothest response throughout the room due to being able to position each sub well to cover the whole room.
 

DonH50

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Sorry, we're missing each other. My point was multiple subs will help room response, I am in agreement with you. They do not need to be stereo subs, i.e. a left and right sub, however. Does that help?
 

LL21

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Sorry, we're missing each other. My point was multiple subs will help room response, I am in agreement with you. They do not need to be stereo subs, i.e. a left and right sub, however. Does that help?

Ahah! Yes, i understand now. Thanks, Don. That nuance had not occured to me, as I have 2 preouts...one for my amp...and i run the other preout (L&R) to my one sub.

are you saying if i do 2 subs, i can run R to one sub and L to the other sub...and that will be ok? And i can leave the other set of pre-outs to go straight to my amp. Is this right?
 

JackD201

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I believe Lee is asking about a single sub run stereo by having each coil receive a signal as opposed to both coils driven with the same signal and not having two subs.

I've only used a single sub for LFE so typically it's been a Y-splitter to feed both voice coils. For music I've always used one sub per channel. As such I have little idea between the differences between a single sub run stereo vs mono. Bass heavy instruments are usually panned to the center so my guess would be that there wouldn't be much difference when it comes to music.
 

LL21

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I believe Lee is asking about a single sub run stereo by having each coil receive a signal as opposed to both coils driven with the same signal and not having two subs.

I've only used a single sub for LFE so typically it's been a Y-splitter to feed both voice coils. For music I've always used one sub per channel. As such I have little idea between the differences between a single sub run stereo vs mono. Bass heavy instruments are usually panned to the center so my guess would be that there wouldn't be much difference when it comes to music.

Thanks, Jack!
 

trponhunter

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Apr 30, 2012
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Ahah! Yes, i understand now. Thanks, Don. That nuance had not occured to me, as I have 2 preouts...one for my amp...and i run the other preout (L&R) to my one sub.

are you saying if i do 2 subs, i can run R to one sub and L to the other sub...and that will be ok? And i can leave the other set of pre-outs to go straight to my amp. Is this right?

Correct
 

Gregadd

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Also the sub can"excite" objects close to it. That can give away its position.
 

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