Pin point imaging?

**Gregadd** · 08-08-2012, 04:19 PM

Originally Posted by Whatmore

I think the Sanders Electrostats are deliberately designed to 'beam' and hence produce pinpoint imaging.

Not exactly.http://sanderssoundsystems.com/techn.../dispersion-wp I did not find them to have pinpoint imaging. they were very natural to me. YMMV.

**Phelonious Ponk** · 08-08-2012, 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by jazdoc

I agree with Tim that pinpoint imaging is not natural and I think he is spot on regarding the illusion of imaging as a substitute for visual cues. Unlike Tim, for me, pinpoint imaging is pretty low on the audiophile checklist. Dynamics (both macro and micro) and tone saturation are more important for my taste. Perhaps these sort of differences help account for why people can have such widely divergent opinions about specific pieces of gear??

I think that's a huge part of it. My personal priorities are imaging, tonality and detail.

Tim

**trponhunter** · 08-08-2012, 06:10 PM

don't forget, a recording is not a live performance. It is picked up by microphones - not your ears. Pin point imaging is just an example of a system showing you precisely what is captured on the recording.

**MylesBAstor** · 08-08-2012, 06:24 PM

Originally Posted by trponhunter

don't forget, a recording is not a live performance. It is picked up by microphones - not your ears. Pin point imaging is just an example of a system showing you precisely what is captured on the recording.

Bingo! Give that man a dollar

And largely traceable to the miking technique, the mike pickup pattern and type of music. And if your system can't reveal the differences between recordings, then there's something wrong. Not all recordings are going to have pinpoint imaging. Oh and how are you going to get pinpoint imaging with a solo cello? Hard to when the musician moves while playing, esp. since you're caught between two masters when miking a cello or double bass.

**caesar** · 08-08-2012, 07:43 PM

Originally Posted by NorthStar

In Stereophile's September 2012 issue right?

And who is that reviewer?

Correct. The guy is Robert Deutsch. What I like about him is that he is a music lover and judges gear based on how close gear sounds to live music.

**puroagave** · 08-08-2012, 08:11 PM

if you accept imaging as a function of miking technique and the mikes pickup patterns (omni, cardioid, hyper and super, etc) then you must also consider the polar patern of the speaker as the final link between the 'system' and the listener. i find speakers with polar patterns that radiate like an omni ( speakers with 1st order crossovers for instance) need way more room treatment than those that radiate like a cardiod (im thinking proac tablette, harbeth p3, spendor s3/5 etc.). it can mean the difference between sharp or diffuse images.

**GaryProtein** · 08-08-2012, 08:50 PM

Pinpoint imaging isn't natural, it is an artifact of microphone placement, but without imaging, you can't construct a stereo/solid soundstage. Dipoles may not pinpoint image as well as some dynamic speakers, but the solidity and depth of their soundstage is much better. Speakers like the Magneplanars, Martin-Logans and Infinity/Genesis dipoles are champions of the solid soundstage.

What Phelonious said about the position of players in a club band creating a soundstage is true because they typically have their amplifiers miked and then fed through the club's PA system which is what the audience listens to, so there really isn't a live soundstage. However, I don't agree with the part about acoustic instruments playing in someone's living room, because I have been to many recitals (mostly string quartets and piano quintets) in large living rooms and you can tell exactly where the the musicians are situated. YMMV. Also, the farther you are from the musicians or the narrower the angle between the speakers, the less pinpoint imaging you are going to have.

A real soundstage requires acoustic instruments being recorded preferably by as few microphones as possible to pick up all the instruments in real physical space. Any other soundstage is created in the recording control board.

Regarding Myles statement about imaging of s solo cello, I have to say on my system soloists always image much bigger than life, which clearly isn't a reproduction of reality. Other ensembles or orchestras are represented extremely well.

**NorthStar** · 08-08-2012, 10:30 PM

Originally Posted by caesar

Correct. The guy is Robert Deutsch. What I like about him is that he is a music lover and judges gear based on how close gear sounds to live music.

Thank you, and I am quite familiar with Robert Deutsch as the audio reviewer and the musician,
both in Canada and the USA.

...And for many many years.

**NorthStar** · 08-08-2012, 10:37 PM

Originally Posted by GaryProtein

...

What Phelonious said about the position of players in a club band creating a soundstage is true because they typically have their amplifiers miked and then fed through the club's PA system which is what the audience listens to, so there really isn't a live soundstage. However, I don't agree with the part about acoustic instruments playing in someone's living room, because I have been to many recitals (mostly string quartets and piano quintets) in large living rooms and you can tell exactly where the the musicians are situated. YMMV. Also, the farther you are from the musicians or the narrower the angle between the speakers, the less pinpoint imaging you are going to have.

A real soundstage requires acoustic instruments being recorded preferably by as few microphones as possible to pick up all the instruments in real physical space. Any other soundstage is created in the recording control board.

Regarding Myles statement about imaging of solo cello, I have to say on my system soloists always image much bigger than life, which clearly isn't a reproduction of reality. Other ensembles or orchestras are represented extremely well.

-----Very true and well said Gary.
As a live music performer myself, with a band, in my own living room, from the past, I can 100% attest to that.

**MylesBAstor** · 08-09-2012, 02:33 AM

Originally Posted by GaryProtein

Regarding Myles statement about imaging of s solo cello, I have to say on my system soloists always image much bigger than life, which clearly isn't a reproduction of reality. Other ensembles or orchestras are represented extremely well.

Do you think that's in part a function of the IRSs? The IRS is wonderful on large scale but sometimes "oveblows" small scale music. I always preferred the RS1bs to the IRS in this aspect.