Mac Server - Mac Pro Overkill?

LL21 · Aug 4, 2012

Hi All,

I am betwixt and between on servers...and am happily looking for Transport. But as i read more...i am looking for a simple dumb man's version of a server that will provide SOTA digital input into a DAC. What would happen if i bought a Mac Pro (not the notebook...the tower)...and used the 4 swappable drives to have 2 SS drives for active use and 2 regular drivers for back up...and ran it with an ipad?

USB out to a DAC which has a customized USB interface...i am thinking STahl-Tek with its USB to i2s bridge direct into the DAC.

I could play a disc from MAC Pro into the DAC...or i could load it up onto the SS Drive, and back it up on the swappable regular drive.

Yes a bit expensive...but swappable drives, thus automatic backup, MAC interface, ipad, etc...makes life easier for a serious NON-techie...

...does this make any sense at all? If i do SS drive to DAC via i2s...am i likely to rival SOTA transports this way?

I have read Mac Pro is the best for music servers, followed by Mac Mini...in both cases, way cheaper than SOTA transport. Thanks for any advice.

Phelonious Ponk · Aug 4, 2012

lloydelee21 said:
Hi All,

I am betwixt and between on servers...and am happily looking for Transport. But as i read more...i am looking for a simple dumb man's version of a server that will provide SOTA digital input into a DAC. What would happen if i bought a Mac Pro (not the notebook...the tower)...and used the 4 swappable drives to have 2 SS drives for active use and 2 regular drivers for back up...and ran it with an ipad?

USB out to a DAC which has a customized USB interface...i am thinking STahl-Tek with its USB to i2s bridge direct into the DAC.

I could play a disc from MAC Pro into the DAC...or i could load it up onto the SS Drive, and back it up on the swappable regular drive.

Yes a bit expensive...but swappable drives, thus automatic backup, MAC interface, ipad, etc...makes life easier for a serious NON-techie...

...does this make any sense at all? If i do SS drive to DAC via i2s...am i likely to rival SOTA transports this way?

I have read Mac Pro is the best for music servers, followed by Mac Mini...in both cases, way cheaper than SOTA transport. Thanks for any advice.

To be honest it sounds like overkill to me. It would certainly be neat, but the processing requirements of a music server are not challenging and you could easily accomplish the same thing with a Mac mini and external hard drives. they make them in the same footprint, so you can stack them. The mini and a few terabytes worth of storage could be stacked, with cables neatly tucked, in a small fraction of the space a tower would take.

Tim

joeinid · Aug 4, 2012

I am sure it would work fine and I personally prefer the Mac Pro, but I think they are a little noisier.

LL21 · Aug 4, 2012

Phelonious Ponk said:
To be honest it sounds like overkill to me. It would certainly be neat, but the processing requirements of a music server are not challenging and you could easily accomplish the same thing with a Mac mini and external hard drives. they make them in the same footprint, so you can stack them. The mini and a few terabytes worth of storage could be stacked, with cables neatly tucked, in a small fraction of the space a tower would take.

Tim

Thanks Tim...i was also curious about the SS hard drive capacity...probably 1TB plus 3TB of backup...i probably have a couple thousand albums so i was thinking close to 1TB to begin with in SS. Does it make that much difference (in terms of noise?) i am a serious neophyte...i dont even know how to setup wifi...when it goes down, my fiancee sets it up (she worked for AT&T in their network server division).

I am thinking plug and play in the dumbest of dumb ways...and not have compromises i need to take care of with new software upgrades, new external harddrives that need to be added on, with application software to be recognized by the main computer, etc....i hate that stuff. I want to turn it on, put in a disc, hit 'save' and press play and have the best digital transfer to the DAC.

Or are servers not there yet...even MAC?

TheAudioAssociation · Aug 4, 2012

I've got a mac mini connected to my Playback Designs MPS-5. As far as external drives go I have 2 - LaCIE 3TB daisy chained via Firewire into the mini along with 2 - 3TB WD My Books via USB.

The mini boots up, opens Audirvana which then opens iTunes. All I have to do is choose the song/playslist in iTunes and I'm all set. It's about as easy as I could make it.

LL21 · Aug 4, 2012

Thanks, Eddie. How does the Mac mini compare to the transport of the MPS5?

TheAudioAssociation · Aug 4, 2012

lloydelee21 said:
Thanks, Eddie. How does the Mac mini compare to the transport of the MPS5?

Great question! I honestly have not made the comparison. Wonder if anyone else here has?

LL21 · Aug 4, 2012

EddieSudz said:
Great question! I honestly have not made the comparison. Wonder if anyone else here has?

If you try it, please let me know! I am, as many people here will attest (and are probably sick of hearing about it)...struggling with throwing down on a Zanden transport to go with my Zanden DAC...trading it in for Stahl Tek Opus and starting all over again...and now i am thinking a good solution might be Stahl-Tek Opus DAC and Mac Pro USB into the Stahl Tek ABC re-clocker which goes i2s into the Stahl-Tek Opus...and forget the Opus Transport (which is partly what is stopping me).

But i am loathe to go for Mac Pro if it is going to result in a fair amount of money spent on a compromise.

docvale · Aug 4, 2012

lloydelee21 said:
If you try it, please let me know! I am, as many people here will attest (and are probably sick of hearing about it)...struggling with throwing down on a Zanden transport to go with my Zanden DAC...trading it in for Stahl Tek Opus and starting all over again...and now i am thinking a good solution might be Stahl-Tek Opus DAC and Mac Pro USB into the Stahl Tek ABC re-clocker which goes i2s into the Stahl-Tek Opus...and forget the Opus Transport (which is partly what is stopping me).

But i am loathe to go for Mac Pro if it is going to result in a fair amount of money spent on a compromise.

Lloyd,

If you go through USB, there's not going to be any difference between a Mini or a Pro.
The advantage of the Pro would be to install a professional PCI card such as a Lynx, in order to go directly into the AES/EBU input of your DAC.

Regarding the storage features, once you have iTunes plus Pure Music and you run with memory-play, having all your files on an SSD drive might not be relevant. I would get a smaller SSD and store every file on a Drobo unit set with automated backup.

Phelonious Ponk · Aug 4, 2012

Thanks Tim...i was also curious about the SS hard drive capacity...probably 1TB plus 3TB of backup...i probably have a couple thousand albums so i was thinking close to 1TB to begin with in SS. Does it make that much difference (in terms of noise?)

I don't think so but I'm not nearly as picky as some people around here. I upgraded to a 500 GB high speed drive, in my MB Pro so I could backup my computer and my music files all in one move. It is easily twice as noisy as the one that it replaced, and I don't hear it when music is playing. But really, if you're going to control with an iPad and the drives are going to be on the other side of the room, it's not an issue, IMO. If you stopped all the music, shut down your amp, sat very, very still, held your breath and listened very closely, you might be able to hear a hard drive spinning from 10 - 12 feet away. Don't do that and it probably won't be a problem. Fans? Fans can be a problem. The fan on my MB Pro, which is pretty quiet as fans go, almost never comes on.

I am thinking plug and play in the dumbest of dumb ways...and not have compromises i need to take care of with new software upgrades, new external harddrives that need to be added on, with application software to be recognized by the main computer, etc....i hate that stuff. I want to turn it on, put in a disc, hit 'save' and press play and have the best digital transfer to the DAC.

I think it's there for Mac or Windows, but Mac makes everything a little easier IMO. And I personally think the best plug and play is a Mac running iTunes. It's far too common to be audiophile approved, but it just works, and yes, throw just a few software switches one time (and if you get there I'll be happy to walk you through it) and when you put in a disc it will automatically burn it to your HD and eject it when it's done. The only caveat -- do you use hi-res? If you do, Core Audio, the audio engine in OSX doesn't automatically change sample rates. But all you have to do is download and install Pure Audio - $50 - and it will do it for you. No muss no fuss.

Yeah, servers are ready on the Mac. Easy to set up. And once you've got them going they really, really rock. I find myself listening to music I haven't listened to in years, just because it is so accessible. And in the process of error-checking as iTunes copied my CDs, it healed all the errors. Hard to argue with that.

Tim

LL21 · Aug 4, 2012

Thanks, Tim. I am giving that some serious thought as i start to pass 1,500 CDs. They are all neatly organized by type, etc...but if the MAC 'hard drive transport' is competitive with SOTA transports for a fraction plus the long-term hi-res downloadability, useability, etc...that is worth considering...and then stick the money into the DAC.

Phelonious Ponk · Aug 4, 2012

lloydelee21 said:
Thanks, Tim. I am giving that some serious thought as i start to pass 1,500 CDs. They are all neatly organized by type, etc...but if the MAC 'hard drive transport' is competitive with SOTA transports for a fraction plus the long-term hi-res downloadability, useability, etc...that is worth considering...and then stick the money into the DAC.

I think it's beyond competitive. It doesn't play from a moving transport. It plays from memory as it checks and re-checks the bit accuracy with the file on your HD. I don't know anyone serious about servers who doesn't believe they are better - theoretically and practically, than a CD transport. It is a computer, and it's noisy in there, but that is very easily (IMHO) addressed with good galvanic isolation and clocking (asynchronous DAC or re-clocking) outside of the computer. There are people out there who will make it frighteningly complex for you, demand that you must remove all but the core audio functions from the operating system, run custom software, etc. etc. They are entitled to their opinion. Personally, I'd just give it a shot where it's very easy. What kind of DAC do you have? If it's USB, this is easy. Rip a CD in iTunes and compare. I think the difference will be inaudible unless the CD transport sounds worse. Even before you isolate the DAC from the Mac.

Tim

LL21 · Aug 4, 2012

Phelonious Ponk said:
I think it's beyond competitive. It doesn't play from a moving transport. It plays from memory as it checks and re-checks the bit accuracy with the file on your HD. I don't know anyone serious about servers who doesn't believe they are better - theoretically and practically, than a CD transport. It is a computer, and it's noisy in there, but that is very easily (IMHO) addressed with good galvanic isolation and clocking (asynchronous DAC or re-clocking) outside of the computer. There are people out there who will make it frighteningly complex for you, demand that you must remove all but the core audio functions from the operating system, run custom software, etc. etc. They are entitled to their opinion. Personally, I'd just give it a shot where it's very easy. What kind of DAC do you have? If it's USB, this is easy. Rip a CD in iTunes and compare. I think the difference will be inaudible unless the CD transport sounds worse. Even before you isolate the DAC from the Mac.

Tim

Tim, i am thinking about the Stahl-Tek Vekian Opus which has SUB in. Stahl-Tek also makes a Reclocking piece that takes the USB and outputs i2s into the DAC.

Phelonious Ponk · Aug 4, 2012

lloydelee21 said:
Tim, i am thinking about the Stahl-Tek Vekian Opus which has SUB in. Stahl-Tek also makes a Reclocking piece that takes the USB and outputs i2s into the DAC.

So you would be buying a DAC for this purpose? I'd go asynchronous USB and worry no more.

Tim

LL21 · Aug 4, 2012

Phelonious Ponk said:
So you would be buying a DAC for this purpose? I'd go asynchronous USB and worry no more.

Tim

Well, in truth...i am very happy with my current Zanden DAC...but there is one i might wish to upgrade to in any event providing (in a proper A/B)...i can confirm it is better than my current DAC. If i do the upgrade to the Stahl-Tek DAC (it also does hi-res)...then i need to figure out the transport side...do i go with stahl-tek transport...super-exepensive...or go with the option you have kindly been helping me understanding...Mac Pro via usb into the new dac.

audioguy · Aug 5, 2012

I may have posted this in another thread, and if so, I apologize. A friend has the current dCS $70K+ stack with the $30K(?) transport. He ran a server (Music Vault) through one of the inputs, the dCS transport through another, and my server at the time (the original but now improved qSonix) . I was not aware that he had a borrowed the Music Vault music server in his component room (behind his listening room) and was quite startled by the comparison (I actually thought we were listening to my server that I took to his home for his to evaluate compared to the dCS). So I was actually listening (blind) to my server, his server and the dCS transport. When the results were tallied, his server was consistently picked over the dCS transport, while my (now old) server compared favorably to the dCS transport.

Summary (IMO and with very few data points), most any well done server will provide playback as good as the best transports and some even better. So specifically to lloydelee21, go with the Mac based server and you will not be disappointed.

And as Tim noted, it really changes the way I listen to music (I seldom finish an entire CD before jumping to another).

I am getting ready to purchase another MacBook Pro as a backup for my work iMac. And since it mostly will be used for surfing the web if I don't do anything else with it (I just need it available if my iMac crashes), I might want to turn it into my music server. While sonically my existing Music Vault is truly spectacular, it runs on Windows Vista which I dislike with great intensity. I also am not a Media Monkey fan. I do, however, like dbPowerAmp as it does a great job of accurately ripping my CD's. So Tim, I may be contacting you on advice on how to build my new Mac based server -- assuming it can use the file that was ripped by dbPoweramp.

Phelonious Ponk · Aug 5, 2012

And as Tim noted, it really changes the way I listen to music (I seldom finish an entire CD before jumping to another).

For me it has just been an access thing. It is so easy to get to my music that I listen to stuff I haven't thought about in years. It can also be fun to make playlists, but other than that, I listen to whole albums as much as ever. But that's the way I prefer to listen.

Tim

LL21 · Aug 6, 2012

audioguy said:
I may have posted this in another thread, and if so, I apologize. A friend has the current dCS $70K+ stack with the $30K(?) transport. He ran a server (Music Vault) through one of the inputs, the dCS transport through another, and my server at the time (the original but now improved qSonix) . I was not aware that he had a borrowed the Music Vault music server in his component room (behind his listening room) and was quite startled by the comparison (I actually thought we were listening to my server that I took to his home for his to evaluate compared to the dCS). So I was actually listening (blind) to my server, his server and the dCS transport. When the results were tallied, his server was consistently picked over the dCS transport, while my (now old) server compared favorably to the dCS transport.

Summary (IMO and with very few data points), most any well done server will provide playback as good as the best transports and some even better. So specifically to lloydelee21, go with the Mac based server and you will not be disappointed.

And as Tim noted, it really changes the way I listen to music (I seldom finish an entire CD before jumping to another).

I am getting ready to purchase another MacBook Pro as a backup for my work iMac. And since it mostly will be used for surfing the web if I don't do anything else with it (I just need it available if my iMac crashes), I might want to turn it into my music server. While sonically my existing Music Vault is truly spectacular, it runs on Windows Vista which I dislike with great intensity. I also am not a Media Monkey fan. I do, however, like dbPowerAmp as it does a great job of accurately ripping my CD's. So Tim, I may be contacting you on advice on how to build my new Mac based server -- assuming it can use the file that was ripped by dbPoweramp.

Thanks, Audioguy. Appreciate the input. If i go server, it will be MAC. i am thinking Mac Pro...4 swappable hard drive to make life easier for a non-techie like me...no need for external hard drive hookups, etc. i have no idea how an ipad would be set up, but probably ipaid to control. mainly, i am concerned if my wifi goes down, do i have no ability to control my system? or can i hookup the ipaid using a wire to the mac pro? so remedial it aint funny.

LL21 · Aug 6, 2012

Phelonious Ponk said:
For me it has just been an access thing. It is so easy to get to my music that I listen to stuff I haven't thought about in years. It can also be fun to make playlists, but other than that, I listen to whole albums as much as ever. But that's the way I prefer to listen.

Tim

i play thru CD 9 times out of 10. But if server is going to rival SOTA transport AND allow me hi-res capability when that day comes (its here now but with limited availability and some hi-res is apparently not real hi-res...just upsampled low-res)...well that seems for me to be a sensible way forward. the key is having a dac with the right interface so i dont lose the signal inbetween server and DAC.

FrantzM · Aug 6, 2012

lloyd

I had Mac for the purpose, have moved to a Windows-based system and will not look back. If you are interested in an Apple based system. Fine. I would adviseyou to think in term of External Storage. They are Convenient, inexpensive and will hold your entire music collection without the need to know more than pressing a button. One TB external Drive or better a NAS is all you need. I have about 2500 CD and they fit on 1 TB NAS (using FLAC though).
On the DAC side, go for your favorite DAC by all means even if it is SPDF.. Then Get an Asynch USB to SPDIF to make sure you reduce all interconnection issues to a minimum or you can get the one you mention that does USB to I2S ( I am not entirely convinced there are differences there but it is your ears) .. A MAC mini is all yo need .. As for the iPad it will be the nicest remote control you will ever see with a minimum of fuss. As for the performance with respect to dedicated Transport... Honestly you will see less and less transport in the years to come ... The Paradigm has shifted ... $350 laptop with a few easy tweaks (see Post on Gar's insanely god server) sounds at least as good and from my standpoint better than any transport.
If buying the Ma cPro makes you more at ease, fine else the Mac mini and External NAS will make you extremely happy and provide the exact same sonic results

Mac Server - Mac Pro Overkill?

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