Power cords - do they really make a difference, other than potentially reduce noise?

DaveC · May 21, 2016

Don, it's not that factual information about how power cables might work isn't appreciated, it's that engineers tend to make definitive statements based on their inadequate knowledge of the subject. This is true for most humans as well... FWIW, I'm an engineer and have worked with many engineers, too many of them consider themselves experts in any technical area, think they have the definitive answer for everything and don't keep an open mind. They are also difficult to work with and mostly socially inept. And their work is usually not that great... OTOH, there are some that aren't like that but they are in the minority. Not to brag, but in the area I worked (industrial wind power) my bosses and the mechanical designers that worked for me considered me the most technically gifted engineer they have ever worked with and I was invited to travel and give my input to R&D projects and production engineering departments as a result, so I'm not saying this from a position of envy, more like pity... In audio forums, invariably someone puts on their expert hat, usually an engineer, and tells us all how it is. They are mostly severely misguided. This doesn't apply to you btw... I appreciate your contribution of facts and not judgements.

Geardaddy · May 22, 2016

DaveC said:
Don, it's not that factual information about how power cables might work isn't appreciated, it's that engineers tend to make definitive statements based on their inadequate knowledge of the subject. This is true for most humans as well... FWIW, I'm an engineer and have worked with many engineers, too many of them consider themselves experts in any technical area, think they have the definitive answer for everything and don't keep an open mind. They are also difficult to work with and mostly socially inept. And their work is usually not that great... OTOH, there are some that aren't like that but they are in the minority. Not to brag, but in the area I worked (industrial wind power) my bosses and the mechanical designers that worked for me considered me the most technically gifted engineer they have ever worked with and I was invited to travel and give my input to R&D projects and production engineering departments as a result, so I'm not saying this from a position of envy, more like pity... In audio forums, invariably someone puts on their expert hat, usually an engineer, and tells us all how it is. They are mostly severely misguided. This doesn't apply to you btw... I appreciate your contribution of facts and not judgements.

Very well put. "Engineers" who are quasi-audiophiles love to pick on non-technical types (most of us). Audio is a frontier technically and does not always lend itself to dated forms of measurement and thinking. PCs make a big difference IMHO. I would still love to see system "jitter" measurements with and without cabling, power conditioners, etc....

Whatmore · May 22, 2016

DaveC said:
Don, it's not that factual information about how power cables might work isn't appreciated, it's that engineers tend to make definitive statements based on their inadequate knowledge of the subject. This is true for most humans as well... FWIW, I'm an engineer and have worked with many engineers, too many of them consider themselves experts in any technical area, think they have the definitive answer for everything and don't keep an open mind. They are also difficult to work with and mostly socially inept. And their work is usually not that great... OTOH, there are some that aren't like that but they are in the minority. Not to brag, but in the area I worked (industrial wind power) my bosses and the mechanical designers that worked for me considered me the most technically gifted engineer they have ever worked with and I was invited to travel and give my input to R&D projects and production engineering departments as a result, so I'm not saying this from a position of envy, more like pity... In audio forums, invariably someone puts on their expert hat, usually an engineer, and tells us all how it is. They are mostly severely misguided. This doesn't apply to you btw... I appreciate your contribution of facts and not judgements.

unlike audiophiles ?

es347 · May 22, 2016

DaveC said:
Don, it's not that factual information about how power cables might work isn't appreciated, it's that engineers tend to make definitive statements based on their inadequate knowledge of the subject. This is true for most humans as well... FWIW, I'm an engineer and have worked with many engineers, too many of them consider themselves experts in any technical area, think they have the definitive answer for everything and don't keep an open mind. They are also difficult to work with and mostly socially inept. And their work is usually not that great... OTOH, there are some that aren't like that but they are in the minority. Not to brag, but in the area I worked (industrial wind power) my bosses and the mechanical designers that worked for me considered me the most technically gifted engineer they have ever worked with and I was invited to travel and give my input to R&D projects and production engineering departments as a result, so I'm not saying this from a position of envy, more like pity... In audio forums, invariably someone puts on their expert hat, usually an engineer, and tells us all how it is. They are mostly severely misguided. This doesn't apply to you btw... I appreciate your contribution of facts and not judgements.

..the most technically gifted eh? Green with envy here

DaveC · May 22, 2016

Whatmore said:
unlike audiophiles ?

What's the next sentence?

Whatmore · May 22, 2016

DaveC said:
What's the next sentence?

It was a question. The next sentence is open to whoever wants to answer

DaveC · May 22, 2016

Whatmore said:
It was a question. The next sentence is open to whoever wants to answer

No, the next sentence after the part you bolded is "This is true for most humans as well...", which does include audiophiles. It seems to be a human condition to want to have definitive answers, to say things are like this or that, to have answers for every question, whether there is enough factual information to draw a reasonable conclusion or not. It's even worse when the human considers themselves an "expert", then there is no more room to learn anything and the mind closes to any other possibilities.

witchdoctor · May 22, 2016

Geardaddy said:
Very well put. "Engineers" who are quasi-audiophiles love to pick on non-technical types (most of us). Audio is a frontier technically and does not always lend itself to dated forms of measurement and thinking. PCs make a big difference IMHO. I would still love to see system "jitter" measurements with and without cabling, power conditioners, etc....

Here is an article about jitter:

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue43/jitter.htm

Mark (Basspig) Weiss · May 22, 2016

NorthStar said:
Very true doc; there is no way that all members have read all the threads of the internet. In my quick calculation it would take millions light years. ;-)
Dan was just a little precarious. ...We all are @ times, and we never mean any more than humor.

Just as an example:

One of the reasons I don't frequent this forum as much as I used to is the amount of snakeoil audiophoolery being bandied about. From my standpoint as an engineer (and not a social engineer, but an engineer who designed broadcast audio processors in the 70s, as well and vacuum tube amplifiers and speaker systems), it's like a modern day engineer observing a Shaman-like witch doctor in Africa and all the tribesman blindly following his every word and gesture.

I think the reality is a little bit of snobbery, expectation bias, lack of room treatments (such that you move your head 2cm and the frequency response has changed by 20dB at higher freqs), short auditory memory, and the fact that "I paid a lot for these cables so of course they are better!!" And the worst offenders are non-engineer types who work in very different professions.

I'll admit that a fair portion of my customer base is people who buy old vacuum tube amplifiers, sometimes for many thousands of dollars, and have me restore them. Part of me screams, "just get a Hafler DH-220 and you'll be FAR better off," but then the other half of me enjoys restoring these old relics and the revenue stream helps to pay some of the property taxes on my home of fifty years. It's conflicting when I have to answer questions regarding which tube amp to get, all the while knowing that by using tube amps, they are crippling the potential of their systems and adding a LOT more distortion, both harmonic and time domain (due to the poor damping). Once in a while, I get the opportunity to turn on my main system (now in its fortieth year since I started building it) and shatter their perceptions of what audio can be, whether it's a J-pop tune with bone-cracking percussion, or a Gershwin piano piece I recorded myself, the customers are always left completely stunned, "the piano sounds like it's right in front of me!" etc.

I get a strong impression that a lot of people are being ripped off badly in this industry.

Whatmore · May 22, 2016

DaveC said:
No, the next sentence after the part you bolded is "This is true for most humans as well...", which does include audiophiles. It seems to be a human condition to want to have definitive answers, to say things are like this or that, to have answers for every question, whether there is enough factual information to draw a reasonable conclusion or not. It's even worse when the human considers themselves an "expert", then there is no more room to learn anything and the mind closes to any other possibilities.

So why single out engineers?

NorthStar · May 22, 2016

Mark (Basspig) Weiss said:
One of the reasons I don't frequent this forum as much as I used to is the amount of snakeoil audiophoolery being bandied about. From my standpoint as an engineer (and not a social engineer, but an engineer who designed broadcast audio processors in the 70s, as well and vacuum tube amplifiers and speaker systems), it's like a modern day engineer observing a Shaman-like witch doctor in Africa and all the tribesman blindly following his every word and gesture.

I think the reality is a little bit of snobbery, expectation bias, lack of room treatments (such that you move your head 2cm and the frequency response has changed by 20dB at higher freqs), short auditory memory, and the fact that "I paid a lot for these cables so of course they are better!!" And the worst offenders are non-engineer types who work in very different professions.

I'll admit that a fair portion of my customer base is people who buy old vacuum tube amplifiers, sometimes for many thousands of dollars, and have me restore them. Part of me screams, "just get a Hafler DH-220 and you'll be FAR better off," but then the other half of me enjoys restoring these old relics and the revenue stream helps to pay some of the property taxes on my home of fifty years. It's conflicting when I have to answer questions regarding which tube amp to get, all the while knowing that by using tube amps, they are crippling the potential of their systems and adding a LOT more distortion, both harmonic and time domain (due to the poor damping). Once in a while, I get the opportunity to turn on my main system (now in its fortieth year since I started building it) and shatter their perceptions of what audio can be, whether it's a J-pop tune with bone-cracking percussion, or a Gershwin piano piece I recorded myself, the customers are always left completely stunned, "the piano sounds like it's right in front of me!" etc.

I get a strong impression that a lot of people are being ripped off badly in this industry.

You aren't the only one getting that strong impression; some intelligent people know that for a fact.

witchdoctor · May 22, 2016

Mark (Basspig) Weiss said:
One of the reasons I don't frequent this forum as much as I used to is the amount of snakeoil audiophoolery being bandied about. From my standpoint as an engineer (and not a social engineer, but an engineer who designed broadcast audio processors in the 70s, as well and vacuum tube amplifiers and speaker systems), it's like a modern day engineer observing a Shaman-like witch doctor in Africa and all the tribesman blindly following his every word and gesture.

I think the reality is a little bit of snobbery, expectation bias, lack of room treatments (such that you move your head 2cm and the frequency response has changed by 20dB at higher freqs), short auditory memory, and the fact that "I paid a lot for these cables so of course they are better!!" And the worst offenders are non-engineer types who work in very different professions.

I'll admit that a fair portion of my customer base is people who buy old vacuum tube amplifiers, sometimes for many thousands of dollars, and have me restore them. Part of me screams, "just get a Hafler DH-220 and you'll be FAR better off," but then the other half of me enjoys restoring these old relics and the revenue stream helps to pay some of the property taxes on my home of fifty years. It's conflicting when I have to answer questions regarding which tube amp to get, all the while knowing that by using tube amps, they are crippling the potential of their systems and adding a LOT more distortion, both harmonic and time domain (due to the poor damping). Once in a while, I get the opportunity to turn on my main system (now in its fortieth year since I started building it) and shatter their perceptions of what audio can be, whether it's a J-pop tune with bone-cracking percussion, or a Gershwin piano piece I recorded myself, the customers are always left completely stunned, "the piano sounds like it's right in front of me!" etc.

I get a strong impression that a lot of people are being ripped off badly in this industry.

This is the witchdoctor (but haven't received my shaman certificate yet). I have the impression that you are the snob here "Mr. Engineer". You mention that you have a "strong impression" people are getting ripped off. As an engineer how do you measure that? Is it in the number of people? The dollars wasted? Your body temperature as your heart beat rises as you worry about all the ripped off people in the world?
If you want to play engineer that's fine. Stick to metrics that you have "experience" with, like what cables have you listened to, actually measured, on what equipment etc.

PS- If you want to rock your next tube amp restoration contact Pierre Sprey at Mapleshade, he works wonders with old Scott tube amps and one of his secrets are the cables. http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/review-of-scott-amp-with-mapleshade-upgrades.397644/

witchdoctor · May 22, 2016

Long Power Cords Needed

I need to upgrade power cords for my height channels which are active speakers. The cables need to be around 3 meters long, better than average quality and relatively easy to manage since they need to run up toward the ceiling and I don't want garden hoses snaking around my listening room. Since these are surrounds I don't want to break the bank I would like to come in at around $100 or so each. I am open to suggestions and am considering Pangea. Thanks

microstrip · May 23, 2016

Mark (Basspig) Weiss said:
One of the reasons I don't frequent this forum as much as I used to is the amount of snakeoil audiophoolery being bandied about. From my standpoint as an engineer (and not a social engineer, but an engineer who designed broadcast audio processors in the 70s, as well and vacuum tube amplifiers and speaker systems), it's like a modern day engineer observing a Shaman-like witch doctor in Africa and all the tribesman blindly following his every word and gesture.

Thanks for such a kind comment on our posters. If you are wanting to start at metaphor fight in WBF, do not expect me to participate.

Mark (Basspig) Weiss said:
I think the reality is a little bit of snobbery, expectation bias, lack of room treatments (such that you move your head 2cm and the frequency response has changed by 20dB at higher freqs), short auditory memory, and the fact that "I paid a lot for these cables so of course they are better!!" And the worst offenders are non-engineer types who work in very different professions.

Nice to know you have explanations for it all.

Mark (Basspig) Weiss said:
I'll admit that a fair portion of my customer base is people who buy old vacuum tube amplifiers, sometimes for many thousands of dollars, and have me restore them. Part of me screams, "just get a Hafler DH-220 and you'll be FAR better off," but then the other half of me enjoys restoring these old relics and the revenue stream helps to pay some of the property taxes on my home of fifty years. It's conflicting when I have to answer questions regarding which tube amp to get, all the while knowing that by using tube amps, they are crippling the potential of their systems and adding a LOT more distortion, both harmonic and time domain (due to the poor damping). Once in a while, I get the opportunity to turn on my main system (now in its fortieth year since I started building it) and shatter their perceptions of what audio can be, whether it's a J-pop tune with bone-cracking percussion, or a Gershwin piano piece I recorded myself, the customers are always left completely stunned, "the piano sounds like it's right in front of me!" etc.

Can't you simply consider that some people have different sound and musical preferences from you and you are helping them?

Mark (Basspig) Weiss said:
I get a strong impression that a lot of people are being ripped off badly in this industry.

We agree on this one, perhaps for different reasons. But a lot more are getting an enjoyable hobby, great systems, good friends and a life without remorse.

DaveC · May 23, 2016

Whatmore said:
So why single out engineers?

It should be obvious after Mark Weiss' post, lol... in fact it exemplifies everything I was talking about.

treitz3 · May 23, 2016

Okay, gentlemen. This thread has morphed into personal territory. Please, if you are going to comment, make your post about the technical merits of the thread and not about a member. We thank you for your cooperation.

Tom

mauidan · May 23, 2016

witchdoctor said:
I need to upgrade power cords for my height channels which are active speakers. The cables need to be around 3 meters long, better than average quality and relatively easy to manage since they need to run up toward the ceiling and I don't want garden hoses snaking around my listening room. Since these are surrounds I don't want to break the bank I would like to come in at around $100 or so each. I am open to suggestions and am considering Pangea. Thanks

Take look at Supra LoRad MK II 2.5.

microstrip · May 23, 2016

witchdoctor said:
I need to upgrade power cords for my height channels which are active speakers. The cables need to be around 3 meters long, better than average quality and relatively easy to manage since they need to run up toward the ceiling and I don't want garden hoses snaking around my listening room. Since these are surrounds I don't want to break the bank I would like to come in at around $100 or so each. I am open to suggestions and am considering Pangea. Thanks

I would not spend $100 in each power cord to be used for a surround system. IMHO it is our participation in listening to overcome the technical limitations of stereo that creates our hyperbolic sensitivity to small aspects such as power cables or some tweaks. In MCH the spatial information is more complete and straightforward and I would suppose that the contribution of power cables will be minimal.

IMHO no one can advise on power cables for a system without having a deep knowledge about the system, listening room and user preferences. There is not such a think as a the "best" power cable. But each of us has his specific preferences.

Again IMHO from a technical point of view the best power cords would have twisted live and neutral for maximal coupling and a separate ground wire. It is what I use for my AV system.

stehno · May 24, 2016

DaveC said:
It's because most engineers think they know it all and offer oversimplified explanations for things they haven't actually studied in any depth, just like you're doing now.

Actually, DaveC, you make a pretty good point here. But I wouldn’t want to say MOST engineers (and scientists) think they know it all because my experience is limited. But there certainly seems to be an abundance. Frankly, that same statement could apply to many professions. Their called hacks, bushleaguers, also-rans, etc. And I've no doubt essentially every industry is loaded with them.

But I think Tesla said it best as to the quality of engineers / scientists 100 years ago that I speculate is significantly more true today:

stehno · May 24, 2016

DaveC said:
Don, it's not that factual information about how power cables might work isn't appreciated, it's that engineers tend to make definitive statements based on their inadequate knowledge of the subject. This is true for most humans as well... FWIW, I'm an engineer and have worked with many engineers, too many of them consider themselves experts in any technical area, think they have the definitive answer for everything and don't keep an open mind. They are also difficult to work with and mostly socially inept. And their work is usually not that great... OTOH, there are some that aren't like that but they are in the minority. Not to brag, but in the area I worked (industrial wind power) my bosses and the mechanical designers that worked for me considered me the most technically gifted engineer they have ever worked with and I was invited to travel and give my input to R&D projects and production engineering departments as a result, so I'm not saying this from a position of envy, more like pity... In audio forums, invariably someone puts on their expert hat, usually an engineer, and tells us all how it is. They are mostly severely misguided. This doesn't apply to you btw... I appreciate your contribution of facts and not judgements.

Wow, DaveC. I'm impressed. And I appreciate your observation.

Power cords - do they really make a difference, other than potentially reduce noise?

Industry Expert

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

VIP/Donor & WBF Founding Member

Industry Expert

Well-Known Member

Industry Expert

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

VIP/Donor

Industry Expert

Super Moderator

Member Sponsor

VIP/Donor

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads