Power cords - do they really make a difference, other than potentially reduce noise?

ack

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I hope this doesn't turn out to be too controversial a thread, but other than some of them reducing noise (RFI/EMI), I find many after market power cords not materially better than good stock, assuming the right gauge is used in every application. My problem is that I can't scientifically explain the "major" improvements some people claim they hear, unless they are all tied to lower noise and/or marginally better contacts in the plugs.

Here's where I come from:

1) I have significantly reduced hum and noise in my phono preamp by using shielded power cords to the unit and to components close to it.
2) And just recently, I just traded in my Shunyata 12-AWG Cidewinder CX for 10-AWG Black Mamba HC CX feeding my MIT power conditioners and Spectral power amps. This was mandatory considering that 10-AWG wire is what feeds the power outlets. I hate to admit the difference is audible with respect to slam. I made this "upgrade" after reading that 12-AWG wire is rated to 9.3A and 10-AWG to 15A (see this and others).

Overall, assuming the right gauge is used for each application, I accept that some power cords can reduce noise, resulting in audible improvements. However, not all power cords reduce noise, methinks. So what else is there that makes the last 6 feet of power wire otherwise worthy?

I have talked to a number of knowledgeable people who cannot provide any scientifically convincing arguments of why a power cord would make a difference, other than as the result of reduced line noise and/or better contact. I guess to this list I should add impedance stabilization in some networked power cords, but this is still tied to noise filtering.

Thoughts?
 
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moray james

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Ack: I don't understand your angst over not having a scientific explaination for why a power cord would make your system sound better. About twenty years ago not long after I had gotten into designing and building cables I worked with a guy who had a favorite cable manufacturer and he had those cables throught his system. His digital was one of his favorites at the time. I had just started working on digitals then and told him I would build him a better one than what he had. When the cable was ready we spent about four hours one night switching the two cables in his system with him not knowing which had been inserted. To his credit he quickly established one from the other but still did not know which was which. In the end he told me that he had decided that he could tell mine from his and that he still prefered his by a wide margin. That was when I had to tell him that he had prefered my digital. I asked him if he wanted to buy one and he said no. When I asked him why he would not want to purchase a digital cable which he had admitted to likeing better he told me that my cable was not a brand name and that he would never buy a product that was not a brand name. I still don't understand that thinking. If you like a power cord and it really works well in your system what difference does it make how or why it does what it does as long as you like it? I have told myself over the years that I know what is going on inside my cables but over time I am always finding out more and that my simple explaination is never the whole story. I started building cables in 1988 and I am still learning. If it were simple enough to explain in a thread like this we all would all have reached Nervana a long time ago. Follow your heart it never lies to you if you truly listen. Best regards Moray James.
 

amirm

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The numbers in that table come from the metric Maximum Amps for Power Transmission. That is a super, super conservative rating. To wit, NEC allows 12 gauge to be used for 20 amp circuits. Let's demonstrate how conservative Maximum Amps for Power Transmission rating is.

Using the numbers in the table cited, the resistance of 12 gauge wire is 1.6 ohms per 1000 feet. This means if the cord were 1000 feet, the voltage drop at 9.3 amps would be about 10 volts (V = I * R). At 100 feet, it would be one tenth as much or 1 volt. In the typical cord for electronics of say, 3 feet, the voltage drop would be just .03 volts! We are talking about a 120 volt nominal rating varying by .03 volt. The degree of error would be .025%. Pretty small value.

That said, the peaks could be 2 to 3 times higher. But unless you also ran the same gauge wire all the way to the panel, the current rating here would not matter as the power cord length would be dwarfed by the length of the feed to the panel.

Mind you, there may be audible differences. I have never tested power cord differences (impossible to A/B). But worrying about current carrying capability to this level may not be merited.
 

Gregadd

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There must be some benefit to enhanced power cords. Why else do they use them on scientific and hospital equipment? Computers also use them. I like they way they look. I like their solid feel. From a scientific point of view I am not sure what the are doing. Indeed most manufacturers don't bother to explain what problems they tried to address when they designed the cable.The so called scientific community thinks the concept itself is so ridiculous they do not want to even do any tests.
Here is the problem. In audio we often discover a problem. A smart guy comes up with a product to address that problem. Problem solved. As hobbyists we can't leave it alone. We consumers have been conditioned to think if some is good, more must be better. What I am suggesting is that those guys who discovered zip cord was not good enough already solved 90% of the problems. Now we have entered the era of creating filters or some cases having the cables add euphoric colorations. BTW it boggles the mind that those who claim cables don't make a difference are more than willing to accept the notion that cables are acting as filters or tone controls. If cables don't matter that means they don't do anything good or bad!
Some audiophiles have deep pockets and can buy anything they like. God Bless you. Appearently he already has. Before your are buying multi kilo buck cable the manufacturer should at least be able to tell you what problems he has identified and why his cable solves that problem. The fact is that almost none of these guys spin their own cable. Some of it is commercially available in bulk. I was once told that cable was the most important part of your system and that I need to buy $40k worth of cables. The guy did not know if I owned a stereo. There is a ridiculous markup in some of these cables. IMO most of the snake oil salesman have been shaken out over the years. Frequently we are all guilty of elitism. We like the exclusivity that high prices bring. Those who have the ultimate components need something to buy.
My advice, remains the same for myself and most audiophiles, is if you have got big money to spend buy a better component. If you got less money to spend buy some new records or CDs. Leave the expensive cables to the deep pocket guys.
 

ack

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Amir - thanks; indeed my MIT speaker cables appear to be very heavy gauge wire too (the amps can presumably put out 90A peak).

Gregadd:

Before your are buying multi kilo buck cable the manufacturer should at least be able to tell you what problems he has identified and why his cable solves that problem.

That's exactly my thinking and what I have done with Shunyata and I have yet to see proof that their helix construction does anything material for power cords...
 

MylesBAstor

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There must be some benefit to enhanced power cords. Why else do they use them on scientific and hospital equipment? Computers also use them. I like they way they look. I like their solid feel. From a scientific point of view I am not sure what the are doing. Indeed most manufacturers don't bother to explain what problems they tried to address when they designed the cable.The so called scientific community thinks the concept itself is so ridiculous they do not want to even do any tests.
Here is the problem. In audio we often discover a problem. A smart guy comes up with a product to address that problem. Problem solved. As hobbyists we can't leave it alone. We consumers have been conditioned to think if some is good, more must be better. What I am suggesting is that those guys who discovered zip cord was not good enough already solved 90% of the problems. Now we have entered the era of creating filters or some cases having the cables add euphoric colorations. BTW it boggles the mind that those who claim cables don't make a difference are more than willing to accept the notion that cables are acting as filters or tone controls. If cables don't matter that means they don't do anything good or bad!
Some audiophiles have deep pockets and can buy anything they like. God Bless you. Appearently he already has. Before your are buying multi kilo buck cable the manufacturer should at least be able to tell you what problems he has identified and why his cable solves that problem. The fact is that almost none of these guys spin their own cable. Some of it is commercially available in bulk. I was once told that cable was the most important part of your system and that I need to buy $40k worth of cables. The guy did not know if I owned a stereo. There is a ridiculous markup in some of these cables. IMO most of the snake oil salesman have been shaken out over the years. Frequently we are all guilty of elitism. We like the exclusivity that high prices bring. Those who have the ultimate components need something to buy.
My advice, remains the same for myself and most audiophiles, is if you have got big money to spend buy a better component. If you got less money to spend buy some new records or CDs. Leave the expensive cables to the deep pocket guys.

My experience is that AC cords can make a difference - and in some unpredictable ways. For instance, why does inserting a higher quality AC cord between the turntable's speed control and wall make a difference in the table's sound. But damn it does as evidenced by a much lower noise floor.

The caveat is that I don't think one AC cord works in all situations with all systems. So one needs to really be able to compare several cords in their system before plunking down the greenbacks :)
 
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Gregadd

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That's exactly my thinking and what I have done with Shunyata and I have yet to see proof that their helix construction does anything material for power cords...


...But the Shunyata is so pretty and has such a cool name. Who would not want to have something with Helix design just like our DNA?:cool:
 

JackD201

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I have a funny power cord story. One day I was swapping out amplifiers between my HT and one of my 2 channel set ups. In the shuffle I couldn't find the power cord I was using for my Levinson No. 431. It was just the stock cord provided by Levinson that these days just gets thrown out. So, for the moment, I just used a power cord I had purchased at a computer store for use in one of the office PCs. It seemed of the same gauge looking at the thickness of the cord itself. Lo and behold, the amp would go into protect mode every time I cranked up the volume even just a little bit. I thought there was something wrong with the amp and that I had damaged it somehow while carting it around from room to room. Figuring I'd work myself backwards, I went looking for the original power cord which was hidden away in under some other wire. After putting them back at work, the amp never so much as burped again.

I suppose the moral of the story is that if a power cord can mean the difference between operational and non-operational, why not sound quality?

I then went on to try different power cords. In all honesty I found no significant differences between cords from the likes of Verastarr and the stock cords that came with my gear. It was only when I moved to higher resolution components that the effects became noticeable and even then, not of eureka magnitude.

In my opinion, speaker cables make a whole lot more of a difference followed by interconnects. I would rank power cord choice lowest on the total equipment totem pole. Yet it hasn't stopped me. Having pretty much tweaked my system as best as I can given my current circumstances I finally reached the bottom and decided to swap out my Shunyata Pythons for a pair of K-S Emotions for my amplifiers and preamplifier. Again the difference was not miraculous, it was however one that took away a vestigial sense of mechanicalness to the sound. Was it worth it? Well my wallet still hurts, but when I forget about the price, I will be able to say it was. :)
 

Gregadd

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In my opinion, speaker cables make a whole lot more of a difference followed by interconnects.

IME The smaller the signal the more critical the cable. I strongly recommend silver cables in the phono leads.
 
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audioguy

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Whatever your thoughts are on power cords (or speaker wire or interconnects) the real problem (for me) is the priority audiophiles apply when purchasing them. They spend $1000's and $1000's on wire and have yet to do the first thing for speaker/listener placement, room treatment, etc. Right after I purchased my Watt Puppies, the dealer told me I needed new wire and a new amp to fix a 15 db peak in my bass. And I know some audiophiles will do the same thing.
 

JackD201

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Hi Greg,

I would agree in terms of keeping signals as close to the original as possible. So phono cable outranks line level cable in my book.

Speaker cables however serve a very different function than just transmitting a signal. They are directly part of an electromagnetic motor circuit. They have to accurately transmit not just the amplified signal one way for the forward push of the cone or diaphragm motors, but also send back the Back EMF from the motors which in turn dictates the amount of damping the amplifier needs to stop the motion.

I can't be sure. I'm not an EE much less an amp designer. It's just that changes in speaker cables at least in my experience is the easiest to detect because it affects not just tone but dynamics as well. It's just a theory of mine. Of course I could be absolutely wrong.

Hi Audioguy,

The reason I like whatsbestforum is that I have yet to find a member that hasn't been around the block enough times to know that what you are saying is both obvious and true.
 
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Gregadd

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Hi Greg,

I would agree in terms of keeping signals as close to the original as possible. So phono cable outranks line level cable in my book.

Speaker cables however serve a very different function than just transmitting a signal. They are directly part of an electromagnetic motor circuit. They have to accurately transmit not just the amplified signal one way for the forward push of the cone or diaphragm motors, but also send back the Back EMF from the motors which in turn dictates the amount of damping the amplifier needs to stop the motion.

I can't be sure. I'm not an EE much less an amp designer. It's just that changes in speaker cables at least in my experience is the easiest to detect because it affects not just tone but dynamics as well. It's just a theory of mine. Of course I could be absolutely wrong.


I guess it depends on your definition of critical. Damping is not that critical for me. I have electrostats. I am suggesting that the stronger the signal the less effect any small losses will have.
 

mep

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In audio we often discover a problem. A smart guy comes up with a product to address that problem.
Reginald-I would say that with regards to audio, some "smart guys" develop solutions in search of a problem.

Mark
 

mep

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How in the world is an amp and wire going to fix a 15dB peak in your bass?? First of all, that is a huge peak. Second of all, the only way I could see an amp and wire 'fixing" that would be to buy an amp that has no bottom end. As for wire, geez, I guess you could string up your connection from amp to speakers with 22 ga wire. Crazy man. Crazy.
 

JackD201

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Hi Greg,

I would agree in terms of keeping signals as close to the original as possible. So phono cable outranks line level cable in my book.

Speaker cables however serve a very different function than just transmitting a signal. They are directly part of an electromagnetic motor circuit. They have to accurately transmit not just the amplified signal one way for the forward push of the cone or diaphragm motors, but also send back the Back EMF from the motors which in turn dictates the amount of damping the amplifier needs to stop the motion.

I can't be sure. I'm not an EE much less an amp designer. It's just that changes in speaker cables at least in my experience is the easiest to detect because it affects not just tone but dynamics as well. It's just a theory of mine. Of course I could be absolutely wrong.


I guess it depends on your definition of critical. Damping is not that critical for me. I have electrostats. I am suggesting that the stronger the signal the less effect any small losses will have.

That makes sense too.

Either way I still don't see power cords as being as critical in terms of sound quality as ICs and SCs both conceptually or observationally.
 
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JackD201

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Reginald-I would say that with regards to audio, some "smart guys" develop solutions in search of a problem.

Mark

Would that be the same as finding problems for existing solutions? :eek::eek::eek:
 

MylesBAstor

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Would that be the same as finding problems for existing solutions? :eek::eek::eek:

Or a brilliant designer coming up with a product in search of a market :)
 

Gregadd

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Would that be the same as finding problems for existing solutions? :eek::eek::eek:

Not always a bad thing. Take Teflon or duct tape. I guarantee the NASA scientist who discovered Teflon wasn't thinking about frying pans. Or the guy who invented duct tape wasn't thinking about holding up butt cheeks of beauty queens. Yes cable TV has filled my brain with all kinds of useless info.:D
 

MylesBAstor

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Not always a bad thing. Take Teflon or duct tape. I guarantee the NASA scientist who discovered Teflon wasn't thinking about frying pans. Or the guy who invented duct tape wasn't thinking about holding up butt cheeks of beauty queens. Yes cable TV has filled my brain with all kinds of useless info.:D

Nor was the inventor of duct tape realize he was giving Bill Cosby a great line ;)
 

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