Mike Fremer and an interesting observation

valkyrie

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Sep 12, 2011
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Forgive me if this is "old news" but there is a fascinating video on "you tube" in which Mike Fremer (the vociferously vituperative vinylista) and several music producers, recording and mastering engineers hold forth on the importance of audio quality. Great stuff - highly recommended.

Here is the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SY5hI98HEi0

The commentary from the music industry types is fascinating. Now this thing is 2.5 hours long - but do go to the 1.0 hour mark where some producer/recording engineer is describing some work he did with an artist (now deceased). Evidently the artist had to have peaceful surroundings to bring forth his ability (which in my opinion is excellent - a blues style guitarist/singer). So the producer drove this artist to a cabin in the Maine woods and using nothing more than two condenser mikes recorded this fellow to tape. No mixing board was used (apparently this was a minimalist recording effort).

What is particularly fascinating is that they play both the CD of the recording (quite good) AND Mike Fremer, turntable in front of him, plays the vinyl. The vinyl recording simply destroys - in every way imaginable - the digital recording. I was taken aback by the quality difference.

But here is the hook - when you listen to this - and the difference is very clear between the two formats - you are listening over streaming digital feed So how is such possible? Is the commercial CD process that bad? If digital is in fact the root cause of "bad" sound how is it that over youtube and a lousy digital stream that I can hear how much richer and more lifelike the vinyl is?

Something is not making a lot of sense here.

One more thing - near the end of this "round table" discussion a recording engineer plays a CD made from an fifth generation tape (Mr. Tambourine Man by Robert Zimmerman) and another from a first generation tape - again the difference is easily discernible. Something to consider when we discuss the sonic merits of digital and analog.
 

Bill Hart

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May 11, 2012
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I like your alliteratively active agenda for the furiously frenetic Fremer. :)
 

Andre Marc

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Mar 14, 2012
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Forgive me if this is "old news" but there is a fascinating video on "you tube" in which Mike Fremer (the vociferously vituperative vinylista) and several music producers, recording and mastering engineers hold forth on the importance of audio quality. Great stuff - highly recommended.

Here is the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SY5hI98HEi0

The commentary from the music industry types is fascinating. Now this thing is 2.5 hours long - but do go to the 1.0 hour mark where some producer/recording engineer is describing some work he did with an artist (now deceased). Evidently the artist had to have peaceful surroundings to bring forth his ability (which in my opinion is excellent - a blues style guitarist/singer). So the producer drove this artist to a cabin in the Maine woods and using nothing more than two condenser mikes recorded this fellow to tape. No mixing board was used (apparently this was a minimalist recording effort).

What is particularly fascinating is that they play both the CD of the recording (quite good) AND Mike Fremer, turntable in front of him, plays the vinyl. The vinyl recording simply destroys - in every way imaginable - the digital recording. I was taken aback by the quality difference.

But here is the hook - when you listen to this - and the difference is very clear between the two formats - you are listening over streaming digital feed So how is such possible? Is the commercial CD process that bad? If digital is in fact the root cause of "bad" sound how is it that over youtube and a lousy digital stream that I can hear how much richer and more lifelike the vinyl is?

Something is not making a lot of sense here.

One more thing - near the end of this "round table" discussion a recording engineer plays a CD made from an fifth generation tape (Mr. Tambourine Man by Robert Zimmerman) and another from a first generation tape - again the difference is easily discernible. Something to consider when we discuss the sonic merits of digital and analog.

I think you are hearing what you want to hear. Mr Fremer is also very persuasive.
 

jkeny

Industry Expert, Member Sponsor
Feb 9, 2012
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I think you are hearing what you want to hear. Mr Fremer is also very persuasive.
No, I agree with Valkyrie - that CD sounds very different to the Vinyl that immediately follows BUT there is something wrong - either the vinyl has more mids or that CD is recorded very hot as the rest of the CDs played sound pretty good
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Jun 30, 2010
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Do you know if the vinyl and the CD come from the same master?

By the way, this test is just a low-res version of making a digital copy of vinyl and then comparing it to the original.

Tim
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Jun 30, 2010
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I just listened to it. Night and day difference, no question about it; it comes through even on YouTube. And it's not the mastering, there was no mastering process. But we all know vinyl sounds different than digital. The question is, is it better? You guys really liked that vinyl better? After listening to humble Redbook, that 45rpm 12 inch single sounded muddy as hell to me. Like somebody threw a blanket over the speaker. There was no air in his voice, no string noise from the guitar. Good? That's a matter of opinion. Which one sounded more like a guy in a room playing guitar and singing? The redbook CD. By a mile.

Would have loved to have been there so I could know how much was lost in translation.

Tim
 

jkeny

Industry Expert, Member Sponsor
Feb 9, 2012
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Same with the 2 Mr Tamborine tracks at the end - night & day difference but one taken from a copy of the master eq'ed for vinyl & the other from the original 1st gen master
 

valkyrie

Well-Known Member
Sep 12, 2011
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mere heresy

I just listened to it. Night and day difference, no question about it; it comes through even on YouTube. And it's not the mastering, there was no mastering process. But we all know vinyl sounds different than digital. The question is, is it better? You guys really liked that vinyl better? After listening to humble Redbook, that 45rpm 12 inch single sounded muddy as hell to me. Like somebody threw a blanket over the speaker. There was no air in his voice, no string noise from the guitar. Good? That's a matter of opinion. Which one sounded more like a guy in a room playing guitar and singing? The redbook CD. By a mile.

Would have loved to have been there so I could know how much was lost in translation.

Tim

Good catch - perhaps I was taken in by the "difference" and did NOT take the time to really appreciate the quality of the difference. A lot of that goes on in this arena. Maybe I simply focused on the incredible difference between the two. The vinyl sounded - to me - as though it had more sustain, more depth, more "jangly" on the guitar (for lack of a better phrase). It sounded more live - BUT I will go back and listen again. and maybe again after that.

But the point remains - over a very low quality digital stream we can all hear a pronounced difference between the two mediums. This is NOT one of those ineluctable elusively ethereal "differences" brought on by power cords or vibration control (will the loons never cease?). This is real and easily discernible by anybody - even those mere mortals such as myself without the self-appointed and highly anointed "golden ears". And it is coming to you by way of a low quality digital stream. Heresy of heresies - if this were the 1500's I am sure I would be already tied to the stake.

But good thought Mr. Ponk.
 

cjfrbw

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Apr 20, 2010
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Must be "analog placebo effect". Analog guys hear that some audio cut in an array is analog and automatically hear the angels singing in heaven from the "analog" cut.
 
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mep

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Apr 20, 2010
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On the CD version the guitar sounds louder and the voice was in the background. When he starts singing on the vinyl, all of a sudden he becomes a real person and the sound is night and day different with the nod going to how his voice sounds on the vinyl.

And yes, my experience has taught me that you can get a damn good idea on how something sounds by listening to it over YouTube. I have made several short clips of my system recorded over a Sony Cyber-shot 7.2 megapixel camera and then dumped to YouTube. The latest was the Sonny Rollins clip which showed my R2R deck playing through my Ampex 350s into my Krell KBL and into my ARC VS115 amp playing through my Def Tech BP7000SC speakers and a pair of their mating Supercube Reference subs. It still sounds like Sonny is in the room blowing down the walls with his sax. You still ‘get it’ even though of course it is miles away from being here. Remember that when you watch and listen to the OT video.
 

amirm

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Apr 2, 2010
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Nice find. Clearly the difference is large. It was interesting that the vocals became more dominant and the guitar strings got pushed out to the background. If one considers high frequencies = "harshness" one could see how the softer presentation of LP would be preferred.
 

mep

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Amir-which vocal track sounded more real? More flesh and blood? More lifelike?
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Jun 30, 2010
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Valkyrie, welcome, and thanks for the link. I watched most of that and it was very interesting. I found little surprising, nothing shocking. I think the difference between vinyl and digital is obvious. It is not subtle. I think the degradation of compressed digital is the opposite -- it is grossly overstated in Audiophile circles, and this is an excellent example. The differences between those two media came through. Last, this sounded, in general, the way I expect good digital and good vinyl to sound when compared directly. Listen critically. Try to forget your preferences. Listen, specifically, to the detail -- the string attack, the string and fret noise (this is not sibilance, this is natural, this is tone and technique common in this kind of playing). Listen to the air in Whitney's voice and, yes, the sibilance...but here I'm not talking about some error of recording, I'm talking about the sounds the human mouth and throat makes when you're singing.

Now, listen to how much of that is simply not there on the vinyl. It seems to be covered in midrange gravy. This is what I hear in vinyl. This is why I really don't like the stuff. But the surprise? In this case it was a lot worse than I expected it to be.

Tim
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Jun 30, 2010
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I like the LP :).

Different strokes. But high frequencies = high frequencies, not harshness, and an awful lot of them disappeared on the vinyl. Why did the vocal seem to come forward? No mystery there -- more midrange. Less high frequency information.

Tim
 

mep

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Apr 20, 2010
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Tim-let's see if you are in the minority or the majority. I think his voice sounds 1000x better on the vinyl copy. Amir heard what I heard down to describing how the guitar was shoved down in the mix on the vinyl and his voice was brought up. I don't understand how the mix is so dramatically different, but it is. The bottom line is that his voice sounds way better on the vinyl than it does on the digital.
 

amirm

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Different strokes. But high frequencies = high frequencies, not harshness, and an awful lot of them disappeared on the vinyl. Why did the vocal seem to come forward? No mystery there -- more midrange. Less high frequency information.

Tim
All of that happened. To me the LP was about the vocal then. The CD about the guitar and some vocal. Somehow for the track, I thought the spotlight on the vocal was the right choice. No doubt that could be emulated with digital but it was not. As I think was described this was a straight pass through recording. In that regard, it does demonstrate that LP subjectively has a transfer function that appeals to certain part of the population.
 

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