What is going on with TACT and Lyngdorf

A.wayne

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Jan 14, 2011
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Wait what ...:)

How is the top line less colored than any of the rest , the top line is just well warmed over in the bass with an even tilt with no bumps in relation to the rest of it's FR , obviously favored by those auditioning , especially If watching movies ...

Start lifting it from the 200 range and watch them go crazy on piano music , open the tilt up in the 5-10k range and the dixie band fans will jump, a few more settings and even soundminded may jump in ...:)

Yep nothing like EQ for every recording, my soundcraftsman EQ did the same in 78 ..... :)
I see them selling online for 200-300 , we should shoot it out after a blackgate re-cap ..
 

audioguy

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Amir: Something seriously wrong with the Audyssey curve as has been pointed out. I have had a number of iterations of Audyssey on a number of different platforms and none looked like that. While it may (or my not) be the ultimate room correction system, it is nowhere near as flawed as this presentation suggested. The only credence I put in that study was the consumers preferred one particular shape for a target curve. Many systems can provide the same curve as was preferred - not just the JBL.

Furthermore, Harmon is in the business for selling Harmon products so the fact that JBL came out on top is not a surprise.
 

amirm

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hey amir, bizar audyssey result. i validate drc and xt32 is FLAT. the test uses a spurious audyssey result i suspect.
i use omnimic and etf btw. what drc are you using now? arcos?
best, justus
Yes, it is ARCOS although where it has gone is a dedicated theater. Same as what we have at work.

And no, the results are not spurious on audyssey. It has that "BBC dip" in the mid-range which can damage the sound of a good speaker. Here is its target curve:



If you read the AES paper you see that just about everything that showed up in subjective listening tests, can be explained using measurements. Lessons learned are that you don't dial out the room gain in low frequencies and aim for "flat." If you do, the listener will complain about lack of bass. What is important is getting a smooth curve, not flat. Audyssey does it backward, thinking getting an overall flat response (sans the dip and high frequency roll off) is desirable while leaving all of those peaks in there. This has been shown to be a bad policy in many listening tests. So this one is no exception.
 

amirm

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Amir: Something seriously wrong with the Audyssey curve as has been pointed out. I have had a number of iterations of Audyssey on a number of different platforms and none looked like that. While it may (or my not) be the ultimate room correction system, it is nowhere near as flawed as this presentation suggested. The only credence I put in that study was the consumers preferred one particular shape for a target curve. Many systems can provide the same curve as was preferred - not just the JBL.

Furthermore, Harmon is in the business for selling Harmon products so the fact that JBL came out on top is not a surprise.
Well, Lyngdorf came out nearly at the top too. I am pretty sure Harman is not in the business of selling that! :D

If you look at what Audyssey did, you can easily see that is what it aimed to do. Here is the measurements again:



Look at the uncorrected response in black dashed lines. Now apply this target curve from Audyssey to it:



You see that the result would be what is in blue. You can clearly see that the low frequencies have been rendered flat just like the target curve says so. It also has a pronounced dip exactly where the target curve said to put. And there is a more pronounced drop off in high frequencies. Again, exactly what Audyssey target curve told it to do. The only thing that is not explained is why there are two humps in the 700 to 800 Hz. It likely is a result of Audyssey's "fuzzy logic" choosing to use some other mic measurement location than what we see in the graph here. That aside, most of the picture matches its intent.

These were level matched double blind tests. So listeners had no ability to game the system. They did use listeners that were trained however so likely they heard artifacts that average Joe may not. And they tend to be far more cruel to artifacts than rest of the population.

My own experience with Audyssey has been the same with respect to mid-range. I find that it takes the sound of a good speaker and makes it bad.

Ultimately, I look to an automatic system to get me close. If it has the wrong notion of what we prefer and severely misses that mark, I might as well EQ things manually. Indeed, my preference is to EQ the subs/bass manually than to use Audyssey.

All of this said, yes, the performance of the Audyssey as a whole is better than this based on user reports.
 

A.wayne

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A rising low frequency output as presented at the top will produce an unnatural sound , it may impress, sound warm , but it will never sound natural , Curves like this gives an unnatural sound on Bass decay not to mention the load placed on the amplfier and the bass drivers, especially on a speaker like the 802's...

Big multi driver speakers with loads of amplification would need to apply......:)
 

amirm

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A rising low frequency output as presented at the top will produce an unnatural sound
Not when your eyes are closed :). And with their eyes closed, this is what people said:



Look at the neutral column. It fully correlates with the highest scoring system.

If you think about it, it makes sense. We live in closed spaces. So the room gain is always around us. Which do you think is more natural: your voice in your house or your voice in a huge open field? I think you will say the former.

We have to remember that we lack a reference in audio. We don't know how anything sounded in live stage/mixing room. The only "truth" then that we can cling to is what makes sense to us. And that includes room gain. I remember getting my Tact some decade back. The first thing I did was set the response to flat and immediately realized that was not my idea of "truth."

BTW, Genelec published a study of 160 control rooms that all used their speakers. Remembering that Genelec calibrates all of their speakers to similar target curve in their manufacturing, this is what the actual response was in these real rooms:



We see that confusion also abounds in the pro space as to what response is right in the low frequencies. The median however, tends to show a preference for more bass over flat (flat is that faint gray flat line).

, it may impress, sound warm , but it will never sound natural , Curves like this gives an unnatural sound on Bass decay not to mention the load placed on the amplfier and the bass drivers, especially on a speaker like the 802's...
Bass decay is a function of resonances. By dialing them out, the decay is fixed. When you do that however, listeners will complain that the sound is too thin. For that reason, you then need to boost the overall level.
 

amirm

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-- Time to get rid of my pre/pro with Audyssey MultEQ Pro XT32?

And get what? ...For less than three grands.
I don't have a good answer to that Bob. Maybe the thing to do is get the Pro kit and manually fix the curve. Take out the dip and add more bass to it. The solution I use is unfortunately very expensive.
 

audioguy

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I don't have a good answer to that Bob. Maybe the thing to do is get the Pro kit and manually fix the curve. Take out the dip and add more bass to it. The solution I use is unfortunately very expensive.

The pro kit does provide some flexibility in curve shaping. DO NOT use the dip that is automatically selected around 2K. If your pre-pro does not include dynamic EQ, then you can shape a curve virtually identical to that on the Harmon study that gave the most desired response and see if you like it. If you use Dynamic EQ and a curve of that shape, I'm pretty comfortable that you won't like it as at normal listening levels (below reference in movies), the bass would be massively over done.
 

Justus

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Yes, it is ARCOS although where it has gone is a dedicated theater. Same as what we have at work.

And no, the results are not spurious on audyssey. It has that "BBC dip" in the mid-range which can damage the sound of a good speaker. Here is its target curve:

If you read the AES paper you see that just about everything that showed up in subjective listening tests, can be explained using measurements. Lessons learned are that you don't dial out the room gain in low frequencies and aim for "flat." If you do, the listener will complain about lack of bass. What is important is getting a smooth curve, not flat. Audyssey does it backward, thinking getting an overall flat response (sans the dip and high frequency roll off) is desirable while leaving all of those peaks in there. This has been shown to be a bad policy in many listening tests. So this one is no exception.

thanks Amir,

which AES paper are you referring to?
which audyssey version is used?

how was the spectral response measured? psychoacoustically, as in etf5 implementation? this namely takes our temporal integration of sound into account, thus incl reverb. to me if that measures flat, it sounds flat too, and audyssey multeq xt32 does produce flat results in my experience..i can post some after my return form xmass. there is no comparison between multeqxt and xt32 with suub eq imho, so unless ithe paper was using xt32...

One can always eq afteraudyssey to taste irrespective of eq result, similar to adjusting target curve.

the dip can be avoided, even w/o pro, by using THX music..this turns off re-EQ... see var threads on avs. not a major deal to my ears, just different.

justus
 

Justus

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What is important is getting a smooth curve, not flat. Audyssey does it backward, thinking getting an overall flat response (sans the dip and high frequency roll off) is desirable while leaving all of those peaks in there. This has been shown to be a bad policy in many listening tests. So this one is no exception.

xt32 leaves no peaks in my setup...xt was not nearly as smooth though. we need to differentiate...
 

marty

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Hi Franz,
I read your post with interest and hope that the following comments might be of some use as you contemplate what to do moving forward. As you know, I do indeed use a TacT 2.2 XP based DSP system. It is somewhat unconventional in both hardware and configuration. The hardware was modified by Anthony Padilla who incorporated several levels of modifications including modified power supply, upgraded A to D and D to A boards, and finally internal wiring (Nordost-like cabling). Although I am extremely happy with it, there are many posts on many forums that suggest that the future of TacT in uncertain. In addition, although I have always found Anthony to be a very reliable provider, others have not. Although he has, in my opinion, changed the Tact 2.2 XP from a utilitarian component to a true SOA one, it is unclear if he will be joined at the hip to Boz's future activities at Emotiva or elsewhere. Thus, I am extremely sympathetic to not wanting to go down the TacT path at this point. Please consider that I do not use the preamp (gain) functions of the 2.2XP. All of my gain function is provided by my VTL 7.5 MK III preamp and the preamp portion of the 2.2XP is simply bypassed. I use the TacT both for DSP EQ and most importantly, as a crossover. The low pass goes to dual Gotham subs and the hi pass goes to VTL Siegfrieds which feed my Pipedream towers.

So with TacT out of the running, what other DSP solution are out there? We'll you've touched on some of them, which include DEQX and the Lyngdorf system. I recently heard the STeinway Lyngdorf models C and M at Overture Electronics in Wilmington Delaware and was simply knocked out. The M system at about 40-45 K is probably more of a system than anybody needs- its that good. But keep in mind that Lyngdorf incorporates his digital amps into his systems, and many people are not attracted to that. The DSP unit he uses is basically a TacT, which of course makes sense since he is both the father and now, the direct descendent of TacT. The key for me in understanding the excellent sound he manages to maintain is quite simply his target curve, which he publishes in the Steinway-Lyngdorf literature. I won't go into details here, but it is somewhat different than anything TacT suggests. Indeed, when I adjusted my own system to the Lyngdorf target curve, I found it more satisfying than the myriad of curves I had tried previously. They were subtle differences perhaps, but significant ones, at least for me.

What I'd also like to suggest, for your consideration, is to explore some of the outstanding DSP products from the pro-audio world. Specifically, the units that you might want to consider are made by Behringer in Germany.
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/DCX2496.aspx
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/DEQ2496.aspx

One is a DSP crossover and the second is a DSP equalizer. What's really nice is that they provide superb performance and are about $400 each. That's right, I did not leave off a zero. Another way of saying this, is that they are not considered "audiophile" products, but rather instruments that mortal musicians use and are therefore affordable. But don't let the price fool you. They have garnered stellar reviews universally from serious critics. Thus, here we have both of the essential features of the TacT (EQ and crossover), available separately, for very little money. What's not to like!! Keep in mind that I mentioned that one of Anthony's signature modifications on the TacT 2.2XP was to the power supply. Many have said, and I agree, that it is the best value per dollar of all his modifications. The point that I wish to make is that my sense is that if anybody wanted to modify the Behringer units accordingly, I am guessing that replacement of the common half wave rectifier power supplies commonly used in such gear, with a fully regulated power supply, is something that could be done by any number of competent technicians at a very reasonable price. That said, I am not sure the Behringer units need such modifications, my only point being that it's probably doable if one wanted to go the extra mile.

I'll conclude by saying that the Behringer units seem to offer outstanding performance at a very modest price, which I hope will encourage many members of this forum to try DSP in their systems. If you've heard a good DSP system, you'll appreciate the enthusiasm that many of us have for at least exploring this option. There simply is no substitute for a system with a relatively flat frequency response and good effective DSP is certainly one way to achieve this. At these prices, you'll lose little if in the end, you decide it's not for you.
Marty
 
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A.wayne

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Hi


I find myself leaning every day more toward the Lyngdorf ... No mention of Sampling frequencies and bit depth. No USB port either a glaring absence IMO .. Else I like what I see.
The price is good too inline with what TacT charged for similar units.

An aside: A complete TacT system with 2 mains, 2 subs and their Millenium amps run much less than the $40K Steve mentioned ... more like 15,000 Euros about $20K for a full range system with DRC...
Maybe it was the Steinway-Lyngdorf Steve was talking about.

It may lack "tact" ...:)
 

NorthStar

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thanks Amir,

which AES paper are you referring to?
which audyssey version is used?

how was the spectral response measured? psychoacoustically, as in etf5 implementation? this namely takes our temporal integration of sound into account, thus incl reverb. to me if that measures flat, it sounds flat too, and audyssey multeq xt32 does produce flat results in my experience..i can post some after my return form xmass. there is no comparison between multeqxt and xt32 with suub eq imho, so unless ithe paper was using xt32...

One can always eq afteraudyssey to taste irrespective of eq result, similar to adjusting target curve.

the dip can be avoided, even w/o pro, by using THX music..this turns off re-EQ... see var threads on avs. not a major deal to my ears, just different.

justus

---- Hi Justus, nice meeting you. :b

Very good point here you just mentioned: Try THX Music Mode (with Audyssey MultEQ XT32 engaged), & select Re-EQ OFF.

Also, you can try to 'superimpose' PLIIx/Neo:6 on top of THX Music, or by itself, and adjust Panorama, Dimension, and Center Width parameters, to taste.
Or Neo:6 Music, with Center Image adjustment.
...Always with Audyssey MultEQ (Pro) XT32 engaged.

* Me (personal preference) => Audyssey Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume: both always OFF.
{But Audyssey Dynamic EQ can sometimes be useful for some people.}

And last, there are also the Bass and Treble and Mid Tone controls (helpful for some recordings).
...The Treble control in particular.

Cheers,
Bob
 

marty

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I don't have a good answer to that Bob. Maybe the thing to do is get the Pro kit and manually fix the curve. Take out the dip and add more bass to it. The solution I use is unfortunately very expensive.

Amir, check out the Behringer gear I described in my post to Franz. Outstanding DSP is really not expensive anymore.
Marty
 

FrantzM

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Apr 20, 2010
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Hi

I have used the DCX for Bass management in a multi-subwoofer set-up. I didn't like the results when inserted in the mains signal path... Alan Jordan who posted in another thread, remarked that the DEQ-2496 is different since everything can be kept in digital form. I suppose he meant by that to let the DEQ-2496 do the EQ and maybe use an external DAC for D to A purposes.
Both unit are sub $250 at Amazon.com with shipping.
There are various people modifying the Behringer units for Audio purposes as I discovered a while back when I was investigating the DCX. I have not heard those.

Thanks Marty.

For those interested in Digital EQ for Audio There are some interesting and inexpensive solutions: The Behringer units mentioned earlier, mini DSP but also this Free, DRC. It uses a VST for foobar or any player that supports VST.
It can be found HERE

For those using only digital there are free VST "wrapper" for foobar. THE DRC program is also free. The investments are to be:
A measurements microphone
Phantom power for the mic
For a total of $100
 

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