What's the cut-off pricepoint to go from GREAT to SOTA, and it is worth it?

If we set goals they might be content to stop there. For SOTA we wan them pushing the envelope.
http://www.synthgear.com/2010/audio-gear/record-grooves-electron-microscope/

A little digital.

Gregadd said:

If we set goals they might be content to stop View attachment 4662 there. For SOTA we wan them pushing the envelope.
http://www.synthgear.com/2010/audio-gear/record-grooves-electron-microscope/

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Goals? Who's setting goals? We can even get standards for mearuring progress.

whart said:

Mep, I agree but want to add a clarification:
when you say noise, I don't think you mean tube 'rush' or any obvious signs of tube sound, but the ability to resolve the smallest details at a very low level, without being obscured by murk. I'm not sure that ability is solely the province of solid state phono stages, but that's another issue.

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No, I do exactly mean tube noise in all of their manifestations.

MylesBAstor said:

Mark:

I'm curious about the "hum" problem. I have lots of phono stages around among them cj, Allnic, Doshi, Valvet (tube or hybrid) and the Avid (ss) and none of them has a hum problem, even with cartridges down to 0.3 mV.

Now as far as noise, that's also a complex issue that also depends on the say the input sensitivity of your amp. Others that might choose a slightly higher output MC, MI or MM might never experience any noise issues. My Atlas has 0.55 mV output that most tube phonos can handle; others like the Clearaudios have even higher output voltages ranging from 0.7 to 0.9 mV. They also should have no issues with a tube phono stage. The real problem comes in when we listen to those 0.1 to 0.3 mV

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Myles-I should have left the word “hum” out as I was really thinking about the ET-2 humming through my SA-2 pre-preamp. I could minimize it, but I could never make it go away. The ET-2 has no true ground and hum is always an issue with it to some degree.

As for noise, Mike Elliott was adamant that if you want to use a tube preamp (like the SA-5.1) with no pre-preamp, you need a cartridge with 4.7 mv output in order to be out of the tube noise. I used the SA-2 with the SA-5.1 and I had plenty of gain for a .23mv cartridge, but I had plenty of noise as well.

I have never heard a tube phono stage sound as quiet as SS phono stage and the reason for that is they can’t be. My problem with SS phono stages used to be that they all sounded dull, flat, and lifeless to me which is why I put up with the extra noise from tubes. I no longer feel that way with the Krell KPE Reference phono stage and I’m no longer willing to put up with the noise.

Now I grant you that I tend to listen at louder levels than some people who have to listen at lower levels due to living in apartments or having a wife that would throttle them if they turn up the sound. And when you turn the volume up is where you separate the men from the boys. Some systems when turned up to realistic levels fall apart because the speakers and/or amplifier can’t take it. Good systems just sound real. However, if your system is prone to noise, you will hear more of it as you advance the volume knob.

mep said:

No, I do exactly mean tube noise in all of their manifestations.

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Alright, i'm not sure i agree then. And my system uses extremely efficient speakers, so i'll hear the noise. It would rip your ears apart before you'd be bothered by tube noise. Also, and this may be the horns and maybe the size of the room, or both, but at a certain volume level, the illusion collapses, it gets shouty.
I'm after a more natural level, which could probably translate into some high dbs on dynamic peaks, but average listening level isn't super loud. The room just isn't big enough to crank it higher than I do anyway, at least to my taste. (Yes, I listen to some hard rock, but not at ear shattering levels).

whart said:

Alright, i'm not sure i agree then. And my system uses extremely efficient speakers, so i'll hear the noise. It would rip your ears apart before you'd be bothered by tube noise. Also, and this may be the horns and maybe the size of the room, or both, but at a certain volume level, the illusion collapses, it gets shouty.
I'm after a more natural level, which could probably translate into some high dbs on dynamic peaks, but average listening level isn't super loud. The room just isn't big enough to crank it higher than I do anyway, at least to my taste. (Yes, I listen to some hard rock, but not at ear shattering levels).

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speakers with high sensitivity require very little gain, this would actually help give a tube phono stage a fighting chance at an acceptable s/n. back in the day, the counterpoint preamps were among the worst examples of tube phono stages with regards to low noise. Ive owned the SA3.1 (noisy as all get out) and a 5.1. Ive heard the Sa11/sa9 combo when they were new and considered SOTA at the time, and much prefered the rowland coherence (which i bought) for phono and line stage duties.

I have been impressed with the big Aesthetix phono stage as having the best of all words (high gain/low noise and tubes).

Ditto on the Rowland Coherence 1.

puroagave said:

speakers with high sensitivity require very little gain, this would actually help give a tube phono stage a fighting chance at an acceptable s/n. back in the day, the counterpoint preamps were among the worst examples of tube phono stages with regards to low noise. Ive owned the SA3.1 (noisy as all get out) and a 5.1. Ive heard the Sa11/sa9 combo when they were new and considered SOTA at the time, and much prefered the rowland coherence (which i bought) for phono and line stage duties.

I have been impressed with the big Aesthetix phono stage as having the best of all words (high gain/low noise and tubes).

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Rob, good point from the standpoint of the gain required to drive them, but it also seems to me that they reveal a noise floor far lower than a less efficient speaker. I remember my old SP-10mkII as being noisy as hell even over Quad 63's which aren't terribly efficient. I couldn't imagine how that preamp would have sounded with the horns.

whart said:

Alright, i'm not sure i agree then. And my system uses extremely efficient speakers, so i'll hear the noise. It would rip your ears apart before you'd be bothered by tube noise. Also, and this may be the horns and maybe the size of the room, or both, but at a certain volume level, the illusion collapses, it gets shouty.
I'm after a more natural level, which could probably translate into some high dbs on dynamic peaks, but average listening level isn't super loud. The room just isn't big enough to crank it higher than I do anyway, at least to my taste. (Yes, I listen to some hard rock, but not at ear shattering levels).

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And I guess the key word is "bothered" by tube noise. I don't know what you are using for a tube phono section and I have no idea how much or how little noise it puts out. The only thing that matters is that your noise is low enough in level that you are not bothered by it. When you listen to an LP that was mastered from tape, can you hear the difference in the noise floor when the song fades out and the tape hiss disappears between cuts and all you are left with is the vinyl noise floor? It's not subtle in most cases.

whart said:

Rob, good point from the standpoint of the gain required to drive them, but it also seems to me that they reveal a noise floor far lower than a less efficient speaker. I remember my old SP-10mkII as being noisy as hell even over Quad 63's which aren't terribly efficient. I couldn't imagine how that preamp would have sounded with the horns.

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I thought you had the first version of the SP-10. And how do you know it was the table making the noise and not your arm/cartridge combo? My SP-10 MKII is super quiet.

mep said:

I thought you had the first version of the SP-10. And how do you know it was the table making the noise and not your arm/cartridge combo? My SP-10 MKII is super quiet.

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Sorry for the confusion, I was referring to an old ARC preamp I had, the Sp-10mkii, wonderful in its day, but noisy as all get out in the way classic tube preamps were back then, perhaps worse. It had a very nice sounding phono stage. You are right, the SP-10 turntable i have (sitting dormant) was the mk i, which I bought new back in 1974 or thereabouts.
The current set up is very quiet, but all of the components are of relatively recent vintage: Allnic phono stage (i can't remember the gain setting offhand, but it was set more for impedence than gain), Lamm L2 line stage (solid state audio path/tube power supply)/Lamm ML2s (SET) driving the Avantgarde Duos.

mep said:

And I guess the key word is "bothered" by tube noise. I don't know what you are using for a tube phono section and I have no idea how much or how little noise it puts out. The only thing that matters is that your noise is low enough in level that you are not bothered by it. When you listen to an LP that was mastered from tape, can you hear the difference in the noise floor when the song fades out and the tape hiss disappears between cuts and all you are left with is the vinyl noise floor? It's not subtle in most cases.

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Mep, there is very little, if any noticeable (to me, anyway) tube noise, and yes, I know what you are referring to about the vinyl noise floor, if it is a really good pressing the front end pretty much disappears- it doesn't sound like a record playing. Otherwise, on less that stellar records (most of them), you are hearing the artifacts of the pressing and whatever noise is asssociated with the record surface. You are welcome to come over, while this system is still set up. (I have no idea where you live, i am just outside of NYC).