What You're Missing

I disapprove of this thread on the grounds that it may foster more competition for already rare and expensive original pressings. There. I said it!

LOL Jack...

100% agree MEP. When I got analog into my rig I said to myself, what took so long ? I finally realized that I wasn't listening to the potential of my system until I went vinyl and tape.

OK...i'll bite. I am a decided digital only guy...mainly due to not wishing to split my resources and a desire to keep life simple. In my limited experience, i have done the A/B/A thing and have found LP to be a big, big step up from digital...i was comparing an 'ordinary' TT to a Linn Ref Digital system...and it was a real downer to go back to digital.

So...in all of everyone's travels, has ANYONE come across ANY digital that gets close? i mean within 85%-90% of a good TT setup? The ones that most often in reviews get compared to analogue are the Zanden digital and the Stahl-Tek...one of the reasons i am so focused on these two.

Thanks for any advice...

Sorry Lloyd, What I have heard of digital is not close enough to analog sources, but I have not heard it all of course. i have enjoyed digital from Esoteric, Boulder and maybe the prototype Rowland DAC. (was that your question?)

I think vinyl playback that really achieves what you are describing requires a significant commitment, both in terms of gear and effort. While I am heartened by the resurgence in vinyl generally, I'm not sure throwing an entry level turntable into a system, with a modest phono stage and cartridge, will reveal anything close to what a top quality vinyl playback system can achieve. At the risk of pissing people off, I'm gonna conservatively say that means easily spending $5-10 grand on a table, probably about 5 grand on an arm and say 2 grand on a cartridge, at a minimum. And that's not state of the art- that's just, well, good to maybe excellent, depending on set-up. (Let's not forget all the issues around isolation and set-up either, along with the record cleaning machine, and all the associated paraphenlia, from stylus and record brushes, to fluids). Let's throw in the cost of a good phono stage, too. Add, conservatively 3-5 grand. These are not inflated numbers, in fact, I don't think they reflect the real cost of state of the art vinyl playback. And that's in today's environment, where there is a wealth of options- go back to the late 80's, after CD was introduced and think about how many tables were available- not many and even then, in late 80's-early 90's dollars, my price estimates aren't too far off (Linn or VPI or Goldmund/SME or other separate arm and say a Koestu or comparable cartridge). Not many options on the phono stage front then, either- it was integrated into the preamp or you were using a step-up transformer if you were really living on the edge.
I wonder how many folks here were early adopters of digital who never tried to pursue top notch vinyl playback as they 'grew' their system or never had a vinyl rig in their systems at all.

If faced with the choice today, would somebody with a budget of say, even 50 or 75 grand, opt to spend the money necessary to get top level vinyl playback? And to start acquiring the 'software" and associated stuff? It's a pretty big commitment, leaving aside the PITA factor.
Disclaimer: All of the above is entirely speculation on my part since I never left vinyl and it remains my only source on my serious system.
BTW, how can you say this place is boring - I'm having a ball!

flez007 said:

Sorry Lloyd, What I have heard of digital is not close enough to analog sources, but I have not heard it all of course. i have enjoyed digital from Esoteric, Boulder and maybe the prototype Rowland DAC. (was that your question?)

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Hi Flez,

yes, thanks. I have heard high res done well gets darn close...i have also heard from a few manufacturers when they shared a room with Stahl-Tek...they found it very close to analogue and often had to double check if the TT was playing. So much depends on the source material anyway...you might just stop caring. probably not, knowing us...but u might!

I probably shouldn't even be participating in this thread, but I will simply because I agree with Bill (for the most part). I'm going to leave SOTA out of it as only very few have the means to acquire such as setup, but I think the numbers that were suggested sound about right. Spending $15-$20,000 on a vinyl front-end should get you something that gets you pretty close (maybe 90-95%) to SOTA. If I were one day fortunate enough to do this, I would jump on it in a heartbeat. Would I invest the same in a digital front-end if I had the means? Probably not, but then I haven't ever listened to a true high-end digital setup. I like to think of myself as open-minded, and I do enjoy my digital music collection, but I am quite dispassionate about digital as well. Maybe one day when I have more money than I know what to do with. Haha!

John72953 said:

I probably shouldn't even be participating in this thread, but I will simply because I agree with Bill (for the most part). I'm going to leave SOTA out of it as only very few have the means to acquire such as setup, but I think the numbers that were suggested sound about right. Spending $15-$20,000 on a vinyl front-end should get you something that gets you pretty close (maybe 90-95%) to SOTA. If I were one day fortunate enough to do this, I would jump on it in a heartbeat. Would I invest the same in a digital front-end if I had the means? Probably not, but then I haven't ever listened to a true high-end digital setup. I like to think of myself as open-minded, and I do enjoy my digital music collection, but I am quite dispassionate about digital as well. Maybe one day when I have more money than I know what to do with. Haha!

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Hi John,

In truth $20K gets you a lot of digital these days too! Particularly in the second hand market...you could probably get close to a full DCS setup, full Esoteric, Stahl-Tek, Zanden, etc... I would love to hear what 20K of digital does in comparison with 20K of vinyl...

lloydelee21 said:

Hi John,

In truth $20K gets you a lot of digital these days too! Particularly in the second hand market...you could probably get close to a full DCS setup, full Esoteric, Stahl-Tek, Zanden, etc... I would love to hear what 20K of digital does in comparison with 20K of vinyl...

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Now that would be interesting! Has anyone done this comparison?

You've set up the same old argument that you've rolled out here a couple of times before, Mark:

1) Analog must be better because everyone who has both analog and digital prefers analog.

-- The answer to this one is simple: Of course they do. No one would invest the money and deal with the hassle and narrow software choices of analog if they didn't prefer it. There is absolutely no point in owning analog if you don't prefer it.

2) No one's disagreement is acceptable unless they own both analog and digital.

3) And you haven't said so this time, but I know from experience you'll except none of the objective data that clearly demonstrates that even humble redbook is significantly more "hifi" than vinyl.

-- So the preference is fixed and the data is inadmissible. Great position to argue from.

This is at least the third time you've shuffled out this particular stacked deck. It makes discussion, other than the nodding of those who agree, completely pointless. Reminds me of talk radio.

Tim

Hi

While I have started the investment toward Analog simply becasue I have lot of analog these days and seems to be receiving more ... I was thinking abut digitizing them but the sheer amount of work involved had me dropping the idea as fast as I would have dropped a needle on a LP.

This said, I do not subscribe to the notion of analog superior to digital. I simply don't and make no secret about it. A few years ago I was an inveterate analog diehard fan. I did catch myself listening to more digital than analog and frankly it wasn't such a drop in quality to me or my listening buddies. Both the Analog and Digital gear were of the higher caliber. Analog was basis TT with Graham arm and various top flight cartridges among these Koetsu, then Lyra then Miyabi , i ... Digital was all Burmester transport and DAC.. I did think the TT superior in some ways to the digital but my tests were hardly well controlled, then I lost my whole system and what remained was a hard disk with my CD collection in it.. I didn't want to rebuild and I must say I was already swaying toward a different stance toward High End anyway one more objective and reality based than what I would call Audiophile Orthodoxy (I don't care much about cables for instances and think speaker and room first then dress the whole thing anyway your mind dictates) ... Subsequent exposure to the best in digital had me convinced that there was no gap except maybe in our head, especially when I did hear several needle-drop that fooled a whole room full of audiophiles one of them coming from a modified Sony 888ES (or whatever model I can't remember). I will admit having a scant exposure to tape, although I had and now have a Revox B77 and may land a Technics RS-1500. I have heard Master tapes and they were absolutely spectacular... Don't see myself going on things like the Tape Project that go slowly pushing a scant 20 titles if so a year.. My taste in music have me listening to Spotify, Pandora and Internet radio for God sake so that business of waiting for title for years and at price that would buy me several CDs of Extreme quality music on Amazon (think second hand which is not how I buy my Cds mostly), doesn't seem palatable to me. So i will give tapes the benefits of the doubts but I have heard the thing from Reference Recording, HRx and to me that has been the best, most realistic sound I have heard from any medium thus far ...

I am open to be proven the contrary but so far not much has gone that way. I recently had a session with a friend and his superlative TT (Nottingham some planet and arm with ASR phono Stage) he has a Weiss DAC and we compared rather carefully the Mercury CDs to some original mercury LPs he had .. Our verdict different but equal in all objectivity... Many of the superlative we can put on analogue in my opinion are due to superior mastering and when the same care is applied to digital .. Toss-up: they may sound slightly different but equally good if the piece was any good... If one wants to be convinced do have a listen at anything FIM productions makes or an HRx DVD/file.. They're the real deal and if the mind is open can sway you.
Removing the psychological filters and lenses is very difficult and if it deters on the enjoyment , may not be worth. It is clear to me however that the belief that digital is inferior to analog , although pervasive throughout the audiophile world is a belief and act of faith, an opinion , not a provable fact.

I do presently have an excellent system. Headphone based. . I ended up investing much more than I thought I would what with with three headphones (HiFiMAn 500, Denon 5000 and Shure SR-840)three DACs ( a fourth coming in, that one truly portable ) and various Headphones amplifiers none more surprising than the HiFiman EF5 ( a tubed unit with a sound that belies its relatively modest $500 price) .. I would not go too long on Headphones listening but let me say that this mode of listening tells you how broken most (all) speakers are and how far they are removed from true accuracy and neutrality

What I miss: The realism , the Tactile impression of a serious full range system capable of realistic SPL and NOT PLAYING IN MY HEAD , sorry I had to shoot ... I miss the imaging and soundstage of a good speaker based system. I miss the tactile impression the pressure on my ear, body , skin the you are there some systems conjure so much you feel you can walk around and touch the performers.. Headphones don't and maybe can't do that...

I don't miss analog ... Not at all I have analog but prefer digital

Analog vs Digital....IMO one should attempt to have both in your system. For this reason: Digital is SOOOO much more convenient and it's much more plug n play to set up. Good Analog is SOOOO much more realistic sounding and in my case I have SOOOO much more software. One without the other, no thanks. BTW, I do think that you can get a great sounding digital system for not that much money, I think I demonstrated that to Flez on his visit to my home. Not so easy with analog.

DaveyF said:

I do think that you can get a great sounding digital system for not that much money.

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I think this is really the key question. When CD first came out, it sounded pretty horrible, whether it was the recording, the mastering or the hardware, I don't know. By the time some of the heavyweight digital stuff started to show up, I was so invested in vinyl, that it made no sense for me to spend 40k or whatever on a digital front end and start buying software from scratch. Today, I gather than with separate DACs and computer-based systems, if not CD, SACD, etc., serious digital can be done for less. Even though I'm all analog, I'm not a hater. I've heard pretty good digital systems, but they were still expensive. Part of the question is also what the standard for 'good' is. Which is dependent on taste, experience, pocketbook and priorities.

Phelonious Ponk said:

(...) The answer to this one is simple: Of course they do. No one would invest the money and deal with the hassle and narrow software choices of analog if they didn't prefer it. There is absolutely no point in owning analog if you don't prefer it.
Tim

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Tim,

I disagree. You can have analog because some music you like is non existing in digital formats, or most probably the digital version sounds so poor to make it almost unlistenable. I find it about much of the existing jazz recordings of the small labels or rock recordings of the 70’s. And the used LP market has millions of recordings waiting for you at nice prices.

I listen most of the time to digital, because much of the music I enjoy only exists in this format and for convenience (a nice word to replace laziness). But most of the times I put an LP my audiophile character almost makes me feel guilty of spending so much of my time listening to CDs. Happily the music lover wins after some fight…

Several times I have thought about selling all my analog system and using that money to buy a state of the art digital player. Life would then be much easier. But even the very expensive borrowed CD players that stayed in my system could not play up to the performance of any of my top hundred best LPs.

I keep my challenge – please nominate five classical CD recordings, five jazz CD recordings and five rock CD recordings that you feel are the best of CD format. But do not give generic answers – please refer tittles and authors and if possible nominate available recordings. Then I will know what you are referring to exactly.

lps have become too much work, i enjoy them more when someone else puts one on for me.:b how soon i forgot the care and feeding of vinyl thats involved when i have access to hundres of cds through my ipad which talks to a mac mini and dont have to leave my chair. sometimes its this convenience thats the impetuous to exploring my collection again and again.

fwiw, i found the the R2R demos at the show to just be just meh. seems like a lot of trouble to go through and not be SOOOO much better than Lp or cd. I recntly looked up the specs of some of these machines and they're kinda poor actually, im not a specs kinda guy but many have low s/n ratios and limited freq response and this is high-end?

Analog Rules!

(says cjfrbw listening happily in Santa Cruz to mp3's recorded from internet radio through Stax headphones powered by Hogan 26/300b amplifier)

These debates always crack me up. if I can eat caviar, fine, but I will take what I can get if nothing else is available and enjoy it.

Do you really want to tell the connoisseur who buys a turntable that costs the price of a nice car, and takes two Phd's and three double D cup cheerleaders to set up, that digital is just as good?

When both are available, I gravitate toward vinyl by ineluctable instinctual mystery until that is just about all I listen to, why, I don't know and don't care. But I like digital fine, now that they have removed most of the gremlins.

Digital was just such a horror story for so long, it was traumatic, that's hard to forget, and it was associated with too many decepticons for decades.