Why Don't People Muse About Tube Amps That Have The Tone and Timbre of Solid State?
- Thread starter jazdoc
- Start date
That's the reason they wanted a tube amp to begin with, to have no sonic signature of SS.
Solid state owners on the other hand like the power of their amps but are closet tube wannabes!
Solid state owners on the other hand like the power of their amps but are closet tube wannabes!
Good question jazdoc! I have always been a tube guy and disliked what I had heard from transistor amps. However, I think the best designers in tube or transistor have transcended the limitations of both. It used to be that tube gear had that glorious midrange, but soft lows and limited highs, while transistor amps had killer bass and extended treble, but didn't have the bloom and fullness and realism in the mids. I don't think that is true anymore, with the best (better?) gear out there. I started noticing this with certain gear at RMAF over the last few years, so for me it is like the debate between digital and analog. In digital vs analog, to me, it is the entire recording process and manufacturing process. In transistor vs tube, it is the genius of the design. My 2 cents.
If you could get the tube-toned mids in well-designed SS, you'd still have all the SS advantages. If you could get SS-toned mids in tubes, the power and control of good SS would be much more expensive, if you could even get all the way there. It's a big, speculative if, though.
Tim
Tim
Well, they do muse about tube amps that have the dynamics and bass of solid state amps.
For me, though, no tone, no deal.
For me, though, no tone, no deal.
a la Carver? Been there, done that, no go, it is not the same. It would be nice if it were that simple.
I always love pointing out this tidbit (factoid) even though it doesn't matter in most real-world applications: If you look at the fundamental characteristics of the devices, a tube's distortion series is factorial, whilst a bipolar transistor's series is exponential. Thus a tube has intrinsically lower distortion than a transistor.
Tubes also work more with voltage fields than current flow, lower gain often means softer saturation when they do distort, and are more radiation-resistant. I truly hope to never be concerned about the latter in my audio system, however. Just sayin'...
I have found the much greater voltage headroom most tube preamplifiers offer provides measurable benefits that may be audible. Not saying I can prove it either way... I do know my old slightly-modified ARC SP3a1 would put out something like 10 Vrms without breaking a sweat (IIRC it clipped at over 50 Vpp), and at typical levels the distortion was vanishingly small (<0.005%) despite it's data sheet. IME, power amps are where tubes are most colored, which does not make them bad, you just need to recognize the fact and work within their limitations and/or accept (and many enjoy) their sound.
Random thoughts - Don (been there, done that, tubes and SS)
Tubes also work more with voltage fields than current flow, lower gain often means softer saturation when they do distort, and are more radiation-resistant. I truly hope to never be concerned about the latter in my audio system, however. Just sayin'...
I have found the much greater voltage headroom most tube preamplifiers offer provides measurable benefits that may be audible. Not saying I can prove it either way... I do know my old slightly-modified ARC SP3a1 would put out something like 10 Vrms without breaking a sweat (IIRC it clipped at over 50 Vpp), and at typical levels the distortion was vanishingly small (<0.005%) despite it's data sheet. IME, power amps are where tubes are most colored, which does not make them bad, you just need to recognize the fact and work within their limitations and/or accept (and many enjoy) their sound.
Random thoughts - Don (been there, done that, tubes and SS)
One of my audiophile friends said it best when listening to a tube amplifier: They've managed to achieve something no one else has. They've made a tube amplifier sound like a solid-state amplifier
I guess it’s time to come out of the SS closet. I have been using tube gear exclusively since around 1985 (preamps and power amps) and was using tube preamps exclusively for several years before that. So basically for the last 27 years I have been listening to tubes in my system. That’s over a quarter century of tube listening. During that time I had convinced myself of the superiority of tubes and would basically turn my nose up at the sight of SS gear.
And then something snapped, and it snapped a few times before it finally broke. And the catalyst for the ‘snap’ was a combination of a very low ambient noise level in my listening room coupled with the noise of tube phono stages, tube preamps, and tube power amps mixed in with the inherent problems of output tubes being eaten and small signal tubes going noisy or should I say nosier and along for the ride, their first cousin named ‘Microphonic.’ They all combined together for a potent toxic mix.
One of the times it ‘snapped’ was when my ARV VT-100 MKII started acting squirrely and making a strange low frequency oscillation sound that I thought was going to take out my subs and possibly the sub amps. I was going to go ahead and buy new tubes and set the bias until I read the bias procedure and saw it was straight out of Chapter 1 of Dante’s Inferno. There is a reason Uncle Kevin from Upscale Audio refuses to sell tubes for any VT-100 series amp.
Before I owned the VT-100 MKII amp I had stuck my toes in SS waters when I purchased a Pass Labs X-250 amp. The X-250 was a disaster in my system. It sounded more like a 25 watt amp. I was glad to get back to tubes when I bought the ARC VT-100 MKII. Next up to bat was the Jadis Defy 7 MKII which I found the looks striking and the midrange glorious. It also gloriously munched on my 6550 output tubes and every time it eats a 6550, it takes out the cathode fuse and sometimes the cathode resistor. I could go on and on about the nonsense you have to put up with if you own a Defy 7 (and I have talked about the nonsense in the past).
Sometime before my last Defy 7 problem I had taken my Teac R2R to a local repair shop. While I was in there I eyeballed a Phase Linear 400 Series 2 amp. The owner explained that he had completely gone through it, replaced the power supply caps with higher value caps, and it was working perfectly. I bought it as a backup knowing that with tube amps, you need a backup. So when the Jadis munched another 6550 and took out a cathode resistor with it and I was waiting for Brooks Berdan to ship me a replacement resistor, I installed the Phase Linear amp in my system.
So now I’m a little shocked at what I’m hearing and not hearing. There is a quality to the bass reproduction from 20 Hz to 160 Hz (the bottom three octaves) that tube amps can dream about, but can never really achieve. Let’s face reality: tube amps struggle with both accurate bass and accurate high frequencies. It’s the nature of the beast when dealing with tubes and output transformers. Tubes are inherently high impedance/low current devices. Output transformers help convert the high impedance and low current to a lower impedance and higher current, but it still doesn’t come close to what a SS output stage can do.
Added in with the low current that output tubes have is the low dampening factor. Even though some tube companies (think ARC) try to compensate for this by building massive capacitor banks for energy storage, they still can’t get around the low dampening factor. A tube amp is never going to have the iron fisted control over your woofers that SS has.
High frequencies bring on another set of issues with tube amps. Because the output impedance of a tube amp is so high, there is always an interaction between the changing impedance of the loudspeaker across the frequency bandwidth and how that affects the highs. We can all kid ourselves and say it doesn’t really matter and the highs sound just fine. I know I did for over 25 years. But when you seriously listen to a great SS amp and you still want to cling to that line, you have crossed over into the land of make-believe.
And what about that glorious tube midrange? The midrange of tube amps is about the only thing they come close to getting right because they can’t get the bass or high frequencies right for reasons I stated above. And we hear all types of adjectives used to describe the glories of tube midrange, but I seriously think that any harmonics you hear through a tube amp in the midrange that you find lacking in a great SS amp are just low levels of harmonic distortion being added to the signal that is pleasing to the ear. You can come up with your own counter-theories like “Oh no, tube amps are just letting you hear the harmonics that SS strips out from the signal. Uh-huh. The only difference between that statement and a fairy tale is that it didn’t start off by saying “Once upon a time…”
As for tube phono sections and tube line stages, don’t even get me started. Here is where the low transconductance of tubes becomes their own worst enemy with regards to noise. If you want the absolute lowest noise you can achieve in your system and thereby increase the purity of the signal by eliminating distortions, you aren’t going to get there with tubes. Tube phono stages and line stages will add noise to your signal that will ride right along all the way to the power amp. And if you are using a pure tube preamp to amplify low output MC cartridges, you are adding lots of noise that is being amplified by both the line stage and power amp.
I had over $5K invested in my pure tube Counterpoint SA-5.1 preamp with all of the upgrades and it wasn’t all that long ago that I thought it was the bomb. While it was off for its last round of upgrades I bought a Yamaha C2a to tide me over. I have written all of this before. I was embarrassed how badly the C2a bettered my Counterpoint.
Fast forward to the near present: While my Krell KSA-250 was back at the factory for what I thought was going to be a repair and shipment off to its new owner, I decided to buy yet another tube amp and tube preamp. I bought the ARC VS-115 and the ARC LS-17. I have written a mini-review of the VS-115 and the LS-17. The VS115 is the best sounding tube amp I have ever owned. It has the best tube bass I have ever heard. But it’s certainly not the best amp I have owned or even close to the best bass that I have heard. The LS-17 was the second one that I have owned and it sounded just as bad as the first one I owned. But the bottom line is that the VS115 is not capable of the performance of a great SS amp in my experience. And I hate to say this, but it’s not even capable of the performance of a really good SS amp.
I am officially done with the ‘glories’ of tube preamps and power amps. If the highest fidelity to the source is truly your goal, you are not going to get there with tubes. You will be adding measurable amounts of distortion and noise to your signal at every step of your tube chain. It’s time to put the VS115 up for sale so it can find a new owner who can revel in the tube magic and glory. For once and for all, I think I have finally broken my addiction to vacuum tubes. Out of all the adjectives you can use to describe the magical tube sound, the one adjective that doesn’t apply is ‘accurate.’ Like I said in a thread I started some time back, it really is all a preference.
And then something snapped, and it snapped a few times before it finally broke. And the catalyst for the ‘snap’ was a combination of a very low ambient noise level in my listening room coupled with the noise of tube phono stages, tube preamps, and tube power amps mixed in with the inherent problems of output tubes being eaten and small signal tubes going noisy or should I say nosier and along for the ride, their first cousin named ‘Microphonic.’ They all combined together for a potent toxic mix.
One of the times it ‘snapped’ was when my ARV VT-100 MKII started acting squirrely and making a strange low frequency oscillation sound that I thought was going to take out my subs and possibly the sub amps. I was going to go ahead and buy new tubes and set the bias until I read the bias procedure and saw it was straight out of Chapter 1 of Dante’s Inferno. There is a reason Uncle Kevin from Upscale Audio refuses to sell tubes for any VT-100 series amp.
Before I owned the VT-100 MKII amp I had stuck my toes in SS waters when I purchased a Pass Labs X-250 amp. The X-250 was a disaster in my system. It sounded more like a 25 watt amp. I was glad to get back to tubes when I bought the ARC VT-100 MKII. Next up to bat was the Jadis Defy 7 MKII which I found the looks striking and the midrange glorious. It also gloriously munched on my 6550 output tubes and every time it eats a 6550, it takes out the cathode fuse and sometimes the cathode resistor. I could go on and on about the nonsense you have to put up with if you own a Defy 7 (and I have talked about the nonsense in the past).
Sometime before my last Defy 7 problem I had taken my Teac R2R to a local repair shop. While I was in there I eyeballed a Phase Linear 400 Series 2 amp. The owner explained that he had completely gone through it, replaced the power supply caps with higher value caps, and it was working perfectly. I bought it as a backup knowing that with tube amps, you need a backup. So when the Jadis munched another 6550 and took out a cathode resistor with it and I was waiting for Brooks Berdan to ship me a replacement resistor, I installed the Phase Linear amp in my system.
So now I’m a little shocked at what I’m hearing and not hearing. There is a quality to the bass reproduction from 20 Hz to 160 Hz (the bottom three octaves) that tube amps can dream about, but can never really achieve. Let’s face reality: tube amps struggle with both accurate bass and accurate high frequencies. It’s the nature of the beast when dealing with tubes and output transformers. Tubes are inherently high impedance/low current devices. Output transformers help convert the high impedance and low current to a lower impedance and higher current, but it still doesn’t come close to what a SS output stage can do.
Added in with the low current that output tubes have is the low dampening factor. Even though some tube companies (think ARC) try to compensate for this by building massive capacitor banks for energy storage, they still can’t get around the low dampening factor. A tube amp is never going to have the iron fisted control over your woofers that SS has.
High frequencies bring on another set of issues with tube amps. Because the output impedance of a tube amp is so high, there is always an interaction between the changing impedance of the loudspeaker across the frequency bandwidth and how that affects the highs. We can all kid ourselves and say it doesn’t really matter and the highs sound just fine. I know I did for over 25 years. But when you seriously listen to a great SS amp and you still want to cling to that line, you have crossed over into the land of make-believe.
And what about that glorious tube midrange? The midrange of tube amps is about the only thing they come close to getting right because they can’t get the bass or high frequencies right for reasons I stated above. And we hear all types of adjectives used to describe the glories of tube midrange, but I seriously think that any harmonics you hear through a tube amp in the midrange that you find lacking in a great SS amp are just low levels of harmonic distortion being added to the signal that is pleasing to the ear. You can come up with your own counter-theories like “Oh no, tube amps are just letting you hear the harmonics that SS strips out from the signal. Uh-huh. The only difference between that statement and a fairy tale is that it didn’t start off by saying “Once upon a time…”
As for tube phono sections and tube line stages, don’t even get me started. Here is where the low transconductance of tubes becomes their own worst enemy with regards to noise. If you want the absolute lowest noise you can achieve in your system and thereby increase the purity of the signal by eliminating distortions, you aren’t going to get there with tubes. Tube phono stages and line stages will add noise to your signal that will ride right along all the way to the power amp. And if you are using a pure tube preamp to amplify low output MC cartridges, you are adding lots of noise that is being amplified by both the line stage and power amp.
I had over $5K invested in my pure tube Counterpoint SA-5.1 preamp with all of the upgrades and it wasn’t all that long ago that I thought it was the bomb. While it was off for its last round of upgrades I bought a Yamaha C2a to tide me over. I have written all of this before. I was embarrassed how badly the C2a bettered my Counterpoint.
Fast forward to the near present: While my Krell KSA-250 was back at the factory for what I thought was going to be a repair and shipment off to its new owner, I decided to buy yet another tube amp and tube preamp. I bought the ARC VS-115 and the ARC LS-17. I have written a mini-review of the VS-115 and the LS-17. The VS115 is the best sounding tube amp I have ever owned. It has the best tube bass I have ever heard. But it’s certainly not the best amp I have owned or even close to the best bass that I have heard. The LS-17 was the second one that I have owned and it sounded just as bad as the first one I owned. But the bottom line is that the VS115 is not capable of the performance of a great SS amp in my experience. And I hate to say this, but it’s not even capable of the performance of a really good SS amp.
I am officially done with the ‘glories’ of tube preamps and power amps. If the highest fidelity to the source is truly your goal, you are not going to get there with tubes. You will be adding measurable amounts of distortion and noise to your signal at every step of your tube chain. It’s time to put the VS115 up for sale so it can find a new owner who can revel in the tube magic and glory. For once and for all, I think I have finally broken my addiction to vacuum tubes. Out of all the adjectives you can use to describe the magical tube sound, the one adjective that doesn’t apply is ‘accurate.’ Like I said in a thread I started some time back, it really is all a preference.
Gee, Mark, you've become a whirling dervish of nervosa. May you find peace someday.
I have had a Yamaha C70 for a couple of months, been using it with dynamic headphones, sounds absolutely fantastic but it does have more boom and sizzle factor than tubes or VFET.
I read on the boards somewhere that there are still studio engineers that use the C70 as a headphone amp for monitoring purposes. I can believe it, if you like solid state, it is still up there for both its phono section and its headphone output.
I have had a Yamaha C70 for a couple of months, been using it with dynamic headphones, sounds absolutely fantastic but it does have more boom and sizzle factor than tubes or VFET.
I read on the boards somewhere that there are still studio engineers that use the C70 as a headphone amp for monitoring purposes. I can believe it, if you like solid state, it is still up there for both its phono section and its headphone output.
I agree that tubes are a PITA. But, there is something so naturally engaging about the sound of my Lamm ML2 in combination with the horns. I know that amp has worked well even on some of the big Wilsons, and the bass, while it might not be the last word in 'control,' has a tone and body that seems very much like real instruments.
I'm not adverse to solid state by any means, but I'm not sure that would make sense with the horns.
As a side note, I called Audio Research today to get some parts for my Dual 75a. I bought it in 1974 or thereabouts. And, the company still supports it. That impressed the hell out of me.
I'm not adverse to solid state by any means, but I'm not sure that would make sense with the horns.
As a side note, I called Audio Research today to get some parts for my Dual 75a. I bought it in 1974 or thereabouts. And, the company still supports it. That impressed the hell out of me.
What Carver did -- I assume you're talking about The Carver Challenge -- was not nearly that simple. You've been there, done that? You've heard that Carver amp and compared it to the tube amp it emulated?
Tim
I always love pointing out this tidbit (factoid) even though it doesn't matter in most real-world applications: If you look at the fundamental characteristics of the devices, a tube's distortion series is factorial, whilst a bipolar transistor's series is exponential. Thus a tube has intrinsically lower distortion than a transistor.
Tubes also work more with voltage fields than current flow, lower gain often means softer saturation when they do distort, and are more radiation-resistant. I truly hope to never be concerned about the latter in my audio system, however. Just sayin'...
I have found the much greater voltage headroom most tube preamplifiers offer provides measurable benefits that may be audible. Not saying I can prove it either way... I do know my old slightly-modified ARC SP3a1 would put out something like 10 Vrms without breaking a sweat (IIRC it clipped at over 50 Vpp), and at typical levels the distortion was vanishingly small (<0.005%) despite it's data sheet. IME, power amps are where tubes are most colored, which does not make them bad, you just need to recognize the fact and work within their limitations and/or accept (and many enjoy) their sound.
Random thoughts - Don (been there, done that, tubes and SS)
Some interesting points Don. Regarding your first point, I think it depends on which type of transistor is used for the distortion type. The distortion characteristics of MOSFETs are very similar to a tube's, while a bipolar transistor's is not. Also, if you are in the correct operating range of a transistor, you can have vanishingly low distortion. Many manufacturers of transistor gear push their transistors a little much, IMO and then try to correct the distortion with feedback. In my Pass Labs XA 100.5 amp, forty output transistors are used to put out 100 watts! Many transistor amp designers put out that much power just using four transistors. The distortion is very low when designed to be run in their ideal operating range! So, a tube can have lower distortion than a transistor, but not necessarily.
Regarding the radiation point, I plead ignorance. I've never been aware of any radiation problems with amps.
Regarding amp headroom. I had always thought that tube amps of the same power rating as transistor amps had more headroom. That was until I tried the NAGRA 60 watt transistor amp and the Ear 890 70 watt tube amp in my system. The little Nagra really seemed to have the edge over the Ear with my speakers, re: headroom. It could play louder without showing signs of stress at the volume levels the Ear started showing stress. That changed my mind and I came to realize that it was a function of amp design, not necessarily tube vs transistor. What really brought it home to me was how much more powerful the 100 watt Pass amp seemed vs my 100 watt tube amp.
Carl-When you have held a belief as long as I have held the belief that tubes are better than SS, it's hard to let go of 27 years of believing in something. And that's why I kept giving tubes another chance to see if I just thought I was being seduced by the SS sultress. So I have found peace with SS in general and Krell in particular.
With regards to the C2a, it's not a great preamp, but sadly it didn't have to be great to beat the Counterpoint. It only had to be pretty damn good which it is. I do find the KBL to be a great line stage. Ditto for the KSA-250 being a great amp. I know of few amps that are capable of doing what this amp can do in not only power output and incredible bass quality, extension, and control, but in sound quality. And now that it's back, it's not going anywhere.
What Don is referring to is an Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP) event. In the event of a huge EMP caused by a nuclear explosion, tubes can survive the EMP blast while SS can’t. That is the only advantage that tubes have over SS. And in the event of an EMP occurring, whether or not your stereo survived probably wouldn’t be high on your priority list.
Similar threads
 | Steve Williams Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator |  | Ron Resnick Site Co-Owner | Administrator |  | Julian (The Fixer) Website Build | Marketing Managersing |