The What Tonearm Are You Using Thread

jadis · Dec 3, 2010

mep said:
The ET-2 normally doesn't sway like that. I have never seen it that severe before. Here is a video I posted before of my table and ET-2:

What your tonearm should look like tracking a record
After watching Uncle George sitting in his chair with his dog in his lap and his eyes rolled up in his head listening to a warped record played back on that silly looking piece of jewelery that happens to be a turntable, I thought I would shoot a video of a decent LP being tracked properly. Now this is shot from a Sony Cybershot 7.2 MP camera so the audio sucks (it's digital afterall). And yes, my table is dusty but the wife can't see it anyway. The battery died shortly after I started and my hands are shakey, the table isn't. I can't find my tripod which would have been cool to use. The music is Coltrane Live at the Village Van Guard

Here is the link:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_K-VhQ37Ds

Hi mep,

I just checked the record again, and the spindle hole is a tight fit to the spindle, and is not an off centered problem. As I mentioned, I noticed that a few LPs give this swaying effect and the fact that it plays cleanly and almost perfectly all the time makes me not worry about it. The Lp, btw, is a Direct to Disc Concord LP of Charlie Byrd, Barney Kessel and Herb Ellis in Great Guitars - Straight Track. Yes, you're right, it does not normally sway like that, there are a few records in my rack that makes it do that. But on most records, it does not do that.

flez007 · Dec 4, 2010

MylesBAstor said:
If it is as half as good as it is sexy looking, it's a winner

What cartridge is in the arm?

I have a Blue Angel Mantis / Ruby canteliver / MC - just an incredible piece...

JackD201 · Dec 5, 2010

jadis said:
Hi mep,

I just checked the record again, and the spindle hole is a tight fit to the spindle, and is not an off centered problem. As I mentioned, I noticed that a few LPs give this swaying effect and the fact that it plays cleanly and almost perfectly all the time makes me not worry about it. The Lp, btw, is a Direct to Disc Concord LP of Charlie Byrd, Barney Kessel and Herb Ellis in Great Guitars - Straight Track. Yes, you're right, it does not normally sway like that, there are a few records in my rack that makes it do that. But on most records, it does not do that.

Inward sway is normal for records where the Add Lands function of the cutting lathe is used. :wink:

jadis · Dec 5, 2010

JackD201 said:
Inward sway is normal for records where the Add Lands function of the cutting lathe is used. :wink:

Thanks for the input, Jack. I was talking to our good friend 'Coltrane' who used to have both ET2 and a Rockport air bearing tonearm and he said he also had a few records that swayed that way on both arms and if fact, he was quite amused at the sight, just like me. I played a Radka Toneff's Fairytales today and the arm did not sway at all.

mep · Dec 5, 2010

Well, it's normal for pivoted arms to sway back and forth like a Pentacostal getting ready to speak in tongues. However, I've been to 3 county fairs and two goat breedings and I don't ever remember seeing my ET-2 sway like that. Maybe I should look harder so I can neurose more.

JackD201 · Dec 5, 2010

The Add Lands function is a preemptive one where the grooves are spaced farther apart in anticipation of a big attack. What looks like an inward sway is just really the arm tracking properly. As the spaces widen momentarily it looks like the arm moves inwards faster and as the grooves come back to normal spacing the arm looks to be swaying outwards but is really just slowing down. It's typical of records cut in the 60s and 70s. After that, dynamic range was managed by managing the master signal. There's a DG video on youtube where they demonstrate the old school methods.

There really is swaying in off center spindle holes but that's another story altogether.

What cart are you using Mep? Lateral compliance and damping can have an effect too. In the case of your ET2s you two might be running different PSIs.

microstrip · Dec 5, 2010

jadis said:
I just checked the record again, and the spindle hole is a tight fit to the spindle, and is not an off centered problem.

Jadis,
May be you need a Nakamichi dragon CT Turntable - do you remember of it?

Or see:

http://www.regonaudio.com/NakamichiTX1000.html

jadis · Dec 5, 2010

microstrip said:
Jadis,
May be you need a Nakamichi dragon CT Turntable - do you remember of it?

Or see:

http://www.regonaudio.com/NakamichiTX1000.html

Hi microstrip,

No, I have not encountered the Nakamichi TT over here so far. And as I mentioned before, I do not have records with off center spindle hole which, as Jack mentioned, is another story altogether. The worse problem which I had encountered is having a very tight spindle hole wherein records are hard to put in and even harder to pull out of the spindle. Hope I'm not painting a monster face to the analog world. LOL

jadis · Dec 5, 2010

JackD201 said:
The Add Lands function is a preemptive one where the grooves are spaced farther apart in anticipation of a big attack. What looks like an inward sway is just really the arm tracking properly. As the spaces widen momentarily it looks like the arm moves inwards faster and as the grooves come back to normal spacing the arm looks to be swaying outwards but is really just slowing down. It's typical of records cut in the 60s and 70s. After that, dynamic range was managed by managing the master signal. There's a DG video on youtube where they demonstrate the old school methods.

Thanks for the more 'technical' explanation, Jack. Ever since I noticed that phenomenon, I had been longing for an explanation. It would have bothered me had all of my records swayed with the arm that way, but I mentioned there were just a handful of them so it was more of a curio kind of thing which prompted me to take a video of it. And just to add, I always time and again check for the 'deadlock' position using either a blank groove at the middle of the record or a mirror, as designer Bruce Thigpen would suggest. On a blank groove, the arm does not move either forward or backward at all.

mep · Dec 5, 2010

JackD201 said:
The Add Lands function is a preemptive one where the grooves are spaced farther apart in anticipation of a big attack. What looks like an inward sway is just really the arm tracking properly. As the spaces widen momentarily it looks like the arm moves inwards faster and as the grooves come back to normal spacing the arm looks to be swaying outwards but is really just slowing down. It's typical of records cut in the 60s and 70s. After that, dynamic range was managed by managing the master signal. There's a DG video on youtube where they demonstrate the old school methods.

There really is swaying in off center spindle holes but that's another story altogether.

What cart are you using Mep? Lateral compliance and damping can have an effect too. In the case of your ET2s you two might be running different PSIs.

Jack-My cartridge is the Benz Glider SL.

Bill Demars · Dec 5, 2010

I was reading this thread a while ago and someone was talking about the importance of azimuth. Not sure if he thought it was important or not, but I've attached a pdf file of my readings with the Adjust+ software. The first four are with the Benz Gullwing. The second set of four are with the Denon 103R.
It should be obvious that minute changes in the cartridge's relation to the grooves yields huge differences in crosstalk and phase angle.
You'll see the fourth set of numbers where the numbers lock in. Sounds good too and is re-assuring as well.
I would only buy an arm with a provision for azimuth adjustment.

MylesBAstor · Dec 5, 2010

Bill Demars said:
I was reading this thread a while ago and someone was talking about the importance of azimuth. Not sure if he thought it was important or not, but I've attached a pdf file of my readings with the Adjust+ software. The first four are with the Benz Gullwing. The second set of four are with the Denon 103R.
It should be obvious that minute changes in the cartridge's relation to the grooves yields huge differences in crosstalk and phase angle.
You'll see the fourth set of numbers where the numbers lock in. Sounds good too and is re-assuring as well.
I would only buy an arm with a provision for azimuth adjustment.

Bill:

I haven't had a chance to play with the Feickert yet. I'm getting one at CES this year from Dean.

Right now I use an old AT cartridge analyzer to set azimuth. Could you explain what each of the columns means. I get the crosstalk but what do the angles in the cross talk columns mean. Also, I assume you're looking for the point where the phase is the least, not the crosstalk, correct?

JackD201 · Dec 5, 2010

mep said:
Jack-My cartridge is the Benz Glider SL.

Well that's as stable a cart as any as is the Koetsu, probably just software related then. Good sounding cart too if I might add.

Bill Demars · Dec 6, 2010

Myles,
From what I gathered from talking to Christian, the phase angle and crosstalk should intersect at the same points in their graphs. In other words, ideally the crosstalk numbers would be at their best, while the phase angle from L>R and R>L are as close as possible as well. Christian said that the ear is more sensitive to differences in phase than a db or two difference in level. I think he said that 90degrees phase would be perfect, but not often achieved. The phase is affected by VTA, so the azimuth test is very valuable.
Bill

microstrip · Dec 6, 2010

jadis said:
Ever since I noticed that phenomenon, I had been longing for an explanation. It would have bothered me had all of my records swayed with the arm that way, but I mentioned there were just a handful of them so it was more of a curio kind of thing which prompted me to take a video of it.

Jadis,
As far as I know it is due to the high effective horizontal mass of the ET and the particular value of your cartridge compliance. This very low resonance frequency is excited by some records. For sometime Eminent Technology sold a damper tank for the ET2, but it was withdrawn as it seemed it created more problems than it solved.
I now own a Forsell air bearing tonearm and thanks to the small holes in the fixed air bearing it is possible to see that only very few records are really concentric - almost all have a small eccentricity.

jadis · Dec 6, 2010

microstrip said:
Jadis,
As far as I know it is due to the high effective horizontal mass of the ET and the particular value of your cartridge compliance. This very low resonance frequency is excited by some records. For sometime Eminent Technology sold a damper tank for the ET2, but it was withdrawn as it seemed it created more problems than it solved.
I now own a Forsell air bearing tonearm and thanks to the small holes in the fixed air bearing it is possible to see that only very few records are really concentric - almost all have a small eccentricity.

Thanks for the inputs, Microstrip. Yes, I once DIY'ed (my first and probably only DIY job - it's non-burstable or non-hazardous even) :lol: that 'surge tank', but someone told me I missed out on an important ingredient, some cotton/fiber inside, that would have helped in making the air inside the tank 'smooth' and not the pulsating type from the air pump. And so, it was set aside as a museum piece in my room. LOL.

microstrip · Dec 7, 2010

jadis said:
Thanks for the inputs, Microstrip. Yes, I once DIY'ed (my first and probably only DIY job - it's non-burstable or non-hazardous even) :lol: that 'surge tank', but someone told me I missed out on an important ingredient, some cotton/fiber inside, that would have helped in making the air inside the tank 'smooth' and not the pulsating type from the air pump. And so, it was set aside as a museum piece in my room. LOL.

I am referring to a half cylindrical silicone damper that was affixed to the tonearm (the damper trough as it was called), not to the air surge tank. But you should insist on the surge tank - it really improved the performance of my ET2. Any porous material is good for filling it - even foam.

jadis · Dec 7, 2010

microstrip said:
I am referring to a half cylindrical silicone damper that was affixed to the tonearm (the damper trough as it was called), not to the air surge tank. But you should insist on the surge tank - it really improved the performance of my ET2. Any porous material is good for filling it - even foam.

Oh, I see. The damping trough, I think that was an upgrade Bruce provided. I never ordered that. I'll try to fix my surge tank again. Thanks.

c1ferrari · Mar 27, 2011

Just came across this...

mep said:
Well, it's normal for pivoted arms to sway back and forth like a Pentacostal getting ready to speak in tongues. However, I've been to 3 county fairs and two goat breedings and I don't ever remember seeing my ET-2 sway like that. Maybe I should look harder so I can neurose more.

Hysterical!

mep · Mar 27, 2011

c1ferrari said:
Hysterical!

Sam-You obviously don't read me enough. I'm crammed full of gems-or crammed full of something.

The What Tonearm Are You Using Thread

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