What do you use for vibration isolation?
- Thread starter Reid.Whitney
- Start date
Actually, I think a few things have changed, though this may not be the place to discuss them. I have started a thread on the topic of vibration management in the Science Forum. Hopefully, wild unsubstantiated claims will not be made unless the claimant can support his statement with some kind of verifiable evidence. And the tone should hopefully be more serious with few if any personal or argumentative posts.
Your personal expearience with the Shun Mook Resonator's and the relevant in room measurements that you demand of every member who expresses their own opinion here?
OR, Whether, given your obvious angst and resentment when folk are so unintligent as to spend any monies outside of the Purile Audio portfolio, your incessant sniping is worthy of any form of response at all!
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I found the last ~10 posts very interesting indeed. Several years ago I embarked on dealing with my room and measured everything, then applied a bunch of GIK treatments. Interestingly i ended up placing these by ear after the default positions ruined my soundstage - I obviously followed standard principles. I got great results with more detail, bigger soundstage, and fast / tight bass. Next up was playing around the Acourate and Dirac. I must admit that after several months I too moved back to a non drc approach as it drained my system of life. More amusingly I have added many shun mooks as treatments as well as my GIKs and my room has never sounded better.
I am wholeheartedly anti the view that DRC is somehow the Panacea for our audiophile dreams - it really is not IMHO. Believe me, I am addicted to creating lifelike sound in my room whatever the solution. I also don't believe that we still have all the scientific answers in audio to maintain such a rigid objectivist attitude towards achieving dream sound. I think drc is a tool that will suit some people in some systems. At Munich, the Trinnov system was employed in one of the Airforce one rooms with Wilson Benesch - I really did not enjoy the sound yet opposite the airforce one was playing au naturale in the ch precision room and sounded wonderful - I know there are many factors at play but at the end of the day the Trinnov room, following this drc dogma , should beat the ch precision with no room treatments.
I am wholeheartedly anti the view that DRC is somehow the Panacea for our audiophile dreams - it really is not IMHO. Believe me, I am addicted to creating lifelike sound in my room whatever the solution. I also don't believe that we still have all the scientific answers in audio to maintain such a rigid objectivist attitude towards achieving dream sound. I think drc is a tool that will suit some people in some systems. At Munich, the Trinnov system was employed in one of the Airforce one rooms with Wilson Benesch - I really did not enjoy the sound yet opposite the airforce one was playing au naturale in the ch precision room and sounded wonderful - I know there are many factors at play but at the end of the day the Trinnov room, following this drc dogma , should beat the ch precision with no room treatments.
That is wrong. There are indeed default positions that one would try up front for a standard box shape room. Please see www more information.
Keith - what on earth are you on about? Virtually any box shaped room would benefit from bass trapping in the corners as a starter for 10. First reflection points next up and so on. Yes - there are room to room differences but most treated rooms follow standard principles. To deny that is ridiculous.
This is incorrect I always said they were resonators, and they were making a difference which you were not interested in listening to. You had already got irritated by the time i put them under
You are showing your ignorance in abundance - you defaulted your view of first reflection to mean lateral where I make no statement regarding whether this be lateral or not. Please see this snippet from an article from a professional not keyboard warrior - from the realtraps website:
"Many people believe that room measuring is needed to know how to approach treating a room, to determine the number and placement of bass traps, mid/high frequency absorbers, and diffusors. But in most cases you can treat a room effectively without measuring at all. The basic goal is to put bass traps in the room corners, mid/high frequency absorbers at the side-wall and ceiling reflection points, and optionally absorbers and/or diffusors on the rear wall behind the listener. Treating the rear wall is more necessary when that wall is closer than ten feet behind your head."
Anyway - I can't be arsed to waste any more of my Sunday evening debating this since you are not an expert in this field.
Please see FAQ from real traps:
Q: I read somewhere that the only way to know what treatment is needed is to measure the room with special analysis tools. But your descriptions imply this is not necessary, and all I need is to install enough of your panels. Is it really that simple?
A: Yes, it really is that simple. All rooms need absorption at all frequencies, and especially at low frequencies. The notion that bass trapping should target specific frequencies determined by the room dimensions, or should be tuned based on room measurements, ignores that peaks and deep nulls occur in all rooms at all low frequencies.
In truth, bass traps and reflection absorbers can solve all of the problems in any room. The more bass traps you install, the flatter and tighter sounding the low end will become. It really is that simple. For a more detailed explanation of why broadband absorption is better than targeting specific frequencies, see A New Approach to Small Room Acoustics on our Articles page. Top
Q: I read somewhere that the only way to know what treatment is needed is to measure the room with special analysis tools. But your descriptions imply this is not necessary, and all I need is to install enough of your panels. Is it really that simple?
A: Yes, it really is that simple. All rooms need absorption at all frequencies, and especially at low frequencies. The notion that bass trapping should target specific frequencies determined by the room dimensions, or should be tuned based on room measurements, ignores that peaks and deep nulls occur in all rooms at all low frequencies.
In truth, bass traps and reflection absorbers can solve all of the problems in any room. The more bass traps you install, the flatter and tighter sounding the low end will become. It really is that simple. For a more detailed explanation of why broadband absorption is better than targeting specific frequencies, see A New Approach to Small Room Acoustics on our Articles page. Top
I just go on what I can learn from professionals who have very successful businesses selling to some of the largest studios...
Anyway - I really don't intend to learn much more on the matter as I just want to listen and enjoy music and trust information from professionals and then try at home. I think one can get a little aspergers on this hobby unnecessarily.
Dave, I’m intrigued how it seems everybody in these forums, especially guys like you, get to be vibration experts except me. You said earlier I was misguided and full of BS.
Let’s talk real performance, Dave. You may recall a few posts ago, I mentioned installing a make-shift mini-rack for my passive line conditioners out of spare parts lying around that’s only a remnant of my real rack, yet the performance gains received thus far total to about 45 – 50. I also mentioned that my new amps last summer experienced over 120 distinct audible improvements using a far more extreme mounting method.
Well, that’s that not even half of it. As of last December I estimated a conservative 281+ distinct audible performance improvements just in my current system. What does last December have to do with anything? That was when I hosted an event for 12 area audiophiles entitled “Building on the Right Foundation – Part 4 - Redbook format – Perfect Sound Forever?”
If you wanna’ know why I hosted such an event and the feedback received, you can read about it here.
http://www.meetup.com/Portland-Audio-Club/events/218719664/
There you’ll see various feedbacks (remember, not everybody has well-trained ears) and below is a feedback I received via email,
“Hi John. First, I have to say, you outdid yourself yesterday. I really think you've neared perfection with your system. …”
Of course all feedbacks need to be taken with a grain of salt and I can assure you some were unaware of what they really heard. I think it worth noting that I get a kick out of demo’ing my technology with 1960’s pop music that others wouldn’t dare when putting their best foot forward. Something nobody would dare try with their PB system when attempting to put its best foot forward.
Since December, the number of distinct audible improvements went up from about 281 to about 335 - 340 and I’ve not even touched my system since October of 2014. Why? Because when extreme forms of resonant energy transfer are employed, it’s just like the foundation of a building that is always settling in more as time goes by. Even now, I still receive maybe one improvement per week even though I’ve not touched my system since October of 2014.
Now let’s take that quantity of 335+ distinct audible improvements and give it a bit of a reference.
1. I estimate 11 gains attributed to new product burn-in, 15 significant gains attributed to what I call proper electrical mgmt., and the remaining of today’s 300+ to proper vibration mgmt.
2. I’d venture that each distinct audible improvements I attribute to vibration controlling methods, I estimate the average improvement equating to maybe 1/3rd of a significant component’s burn-in completion process. IOW, maybe 3 of the 300+ improvements equate to one significant burn-in improvement after you purchased say a $10k CDP.
3. In 2011, I exhibited at 3 audio shows. At each show, the most common response from visitors was, “this is the best sound I’ve heard” or “this is the best sound I’ve heard at the show.”
Here are two links that barely substantiate that:
http://www.stereophile.com/content/legacy151bmc151dynamic-contrasts#3mu02JtJeHiw6bQe.97
http://www.stereophile.com/content/dynamic-contrasts#TOUP0IgRpm08oC9l.97
For one show Audiogon listed my system in their top 10 favorites, but their show links disappeared a while back.
Since my vibration mgmt. products take at least 5 days before improvements even start to kick in implies when I exhibited my system only had maybe 26 or at most 30 distinct audible improvements under its belt (burn-in and electrical mgmt). And even that was just enough to be slightly more musical than perhaps the very best SOTA-level systems at the show. Moreover, the components and especially my product I exhibited with in 2011 were significantly less musical off-the-shelf than the components I employ even though the newer components retail for only 1/3rd of those in 2011. So while other “SOTA-level” PB systems at a show are nearing their full performance potential, my own system hasn’t even begun the long journey to achieve its full potential.
IOW, you could pick out the very best SOTA-level PB system in this forum (or perhaps anywhere for that matter) and compared to my humble but well-thought-out PB system’s level of musicality with say just 50 improvements under its belt and my system should easily surpass that SOTA-level system’s musicality. Once the other 285+ distinct audible improvements are added in, it’s pretty much a guarantee my PB system should be running musical circles around that “SOTA-level” PB system of your choosing.
There’s feedback from Audio Horizons who in 2010 licensed a small product from me they sold for $159 and perhaps every one of their 10 – 20 clients claimed that small product was the best kept secret in high-end audio.
Then there’s Audio Exotics of Hong Kong who distribute some of the better and more expensive product who on their first day of install (before any settling in) wrote to the president of Zanden,
“Dear Yamada, It is very very important to let you know. If you want to listen to the maximum performance of your Zanden system. Please come. No Doubt, it will be a new experience even for you--the inventor of Zanden. This orange thing is monster!! I am sure!”
http://audioexotics.hk/forum/#/discussion/8800/what-the-freak-am-i-doing-again
AE also has my product in both of their $500k showroom systems and buried elsewhere on their website they claim my product is their greatest find in recent years. And the version they have is only maybe 35 – 40% the performance potential of my current version.
Moreover, I’ve not even touched on the lengthy list of specific benefits my technology brings that no other component nor collection of components could ever do without first employing a similar method of vibration control. Nor have I touched on the folklore and the many disputes my technology puts to bed once and for all. Nor have I touched on the fact that every last PB systems' precision and accuracy has been severely crippled by the two very sources of vibration you can't even acknowledge as having anything to do with anything, i.e. air-borne and internally-generated. Exactly like a severe performance-limiting governor.
Perhaps most important, the benefits of my technology exposes who really knows what they’re talking about and who doesn’t.
Speaking of which, where is even a shred of evidence that you know the foggiest about real performance or true vibration mgmt., or even that you’ve been able to apply anything of significance from your supposed engineering education? Or are you just another paper tiger whose system sounds wonderful over the internet?
But here’s the point I want to make sure you walk away with, Dave. You obviously haven’t a clue the inferior quality of music you listen to when you sit down in front of your system, (otherwise you’d be asking for help in these forums). But every time you do listen to reproduced music, I want you to think there’s a system out there that could probably play the MP3 version of whatever you’re listening to that may well sound as musical or perhaps even more musical.
And that’s due almost solely to the unique vibration mgmt. I employ.
For optimal isolation, place each component on a large granite slab and float them in a pool of mercury.
I've just donated a fairly large amount of moolah to WBF to in effect show gratitude to the moderators/site ops in maintaining what is still imho the best forum for free discourse of info.
But this thread is descending into the usual morass of arch objectivist Purite Keith versus the rest.
Any thread that has a shred of interest, but can't easily be backed up by hard data, is jumped upon by him, and spirals into the usual destructive vortex that we're in effect a bunch of saps being peddled expensive foo that we greedily lap up.
Tbh, I'm pretty sick and tired of it all, and it's pushing me in a direction that maybe I'm going to stop adding comments, and more importantly even read the threads.
Now, maybe I'm full of myself in even thinking my thoughts on Entreq etc are of any interest to anyone except myself. I'm sure plenty are going "yes Marc, withdraw"...
But it will be a sad day if I start to read WBF less often in future.
Tbh Keith is really driving me to this unfortunate conclusion.
But this thread is descending into the usual morass of arch objectivist Purite Keith versus the rest.
Any thread that has a shred of interest, but can't easily be backed up by hard data, is jumped upon by him, and spirals into the usual destructive vortex that we're in effect a bunch of saps being peddled expensive foo that we greedily lap up.
Tbh, I'm pretty sick and tired of it all, and it's pushing me in a direction that maybe I'm going to stop adding comments, and more importantly even read the threads.
Now, maybe I'm full of myself in even thinking my thoughts on Entreq etc are of any interest to anyone except myself. I'm sure plenty are going "yes Marc, withdraw"...
But it will be a sad day if I start to read WBF less often in future.
Tbh Keith is really driving me to this unfortunate conclusion.
Is there any facility within the forum software whereby one may add another member to an ignore list?
Some may consider this to be the antithesis of free speech on an open forum, as do I usually! however in the long term interest of an harmonious atmosphere on WBF, perhaps worthy of consideration.
Some may consider this to be the antithesis of free speech on an open forum, as do I usually! however in the long term interest of an harmonious atmosphere on WBF, perhaps worthy of consideration.
If you click on a person's profile, on the left hand side you will see 'Add to the ignore list'
DooooooH!!! Thank you for that bonzo, I did have a look through my spectacular hangover before I posted, I have duly added you to my list
"add to ignore" list? Just what will this do? Redact all of said "ignored"'s comments? Can this get Keith out of my hair? I bloody hope so.
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