What do you use for vibration isolation?

Mike Lavigne said:

I'm not sure the word 'drain' is properly used to describe what happens when internal circuit microphonics are reduced through various processes. it's more reducing outside resonance effects.

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Actually, one of my preferred analogies is to use a bath tub with the water faucet on full. The tub is the chassis and the water is the energy and my goal is to create a drain so large as to not allow for any opportunity of bottlenecking the water from draining. If bottlenecking begins, it's game over and the system ends up sounding not too dissimilar than so many others.

That's why a superior mechanical conduit must be created to allow mechanical energy to more freely travel between normally disparate objects by making the objects as congruent as possible.

But then again, if isolation was a valid methodology and floor-borne vibrations were a concern, maybe the water is really coming up out of the drain and exiting into the faucet.

Just as an aside, You can clear up a lot of "grunge" etc by merely playing low bass closely spaced test tones and using some blutack or whatever to damp stuff in the room thats resonating sympathetically..
amazing how the sound cleans up afterward.. and do it every month , those buzzes and rattles spring up out of nowhere.

stehno said:

Actually, one of my preferred analogies is to use a bath tub with the water faucet on full. The tub is the chassis and the water is the energy and my goal is to create a drain so large as to not allow for any opportunity of bottlenecking the water from draining. If bottlenecking begins, it's game over and the system ends up sounding not too dissimilar than so many others.

That's why a superior mechanical conduit must be created to allow mechanical energy to more freely travel between normally disparate objects by making the objects as congruent as possible.

But then again, if isolation was a valid methodology and floor-borne vibrations were a concern, maybe the water is really coming up out of the drain and exiting into the faucet.

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We now have this novel mechanism that turns vibration into heat, it's called damping... check it out!

Maybe we can get past the, tbh, pretty childish opinion that components can't benefit from vibration control/isolation. There are so many sources of self-generated, and externally-imposed sources of noise/vibrations, and all our gear has so much sensitive, microphonic components, that one fails the basic physics/mechanics exam if one denies otherwise. How much all of this can be measured, well if Keith can see a tt measure better w/air isolation, and it sounds better, then a cdp will be similarly aided (spinning cd platter). Then valves which are v.prone to feedback, along w/delicate caps. Then we're onto transformers, buzzing, humming and vibrating away.
So, the conversation is not whether there is an effect, it is whether the effect is clearly measurable and audible, and what is the best way to deal w/it.
When my Accurion active isolation rep was here, we concentrated on the tt, but also tried it on my cdp and tube amps, and all measured better w/isolation, and sounded better too. Natch, the tt the most, since it generates the most vibrations/mvts and is most susceptible to those vibrations deleteriously affecting sq. But don't dismiss it in the rest of the chain.

So, Keith, how come every component in my chain benefitted from Accurion isolation? And I mean every one. There was measured data, and subjective perceived impvts.
If I had the budget for a half dozen Accurions and put them under my tt/cdp/phono/pre/monoblocks, I would jump at it, the cumulative impvts would I'm sure be impressive.
Now if you want to argue that Stillpoints etc are less suited than active isolation, fair enough, but don't diss the whole concept.
Of course, you're in a group of one if you're basing all your views on what can be measured in audio. But I think you know that already.

spiritofmusic said:

When my Accurion active isolation rep was here, we concentrated on the tt, but also tried it on my cdp and tube amps, and all measured better w/isolation, and sounded better too.

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Fascinating. Spirit, could you explain more about how this was measured, and by what amount the measured distortion was reduced? You write that each of your components was tested under the Accurion unit. Do you have the measurements to share with us and to demonstrate the effectiveness of this device?

I would like to know more about how the measurements were carried out. I know I have heard the improvements in my own system, so I know isolation (in my case) works, but I have not read about measured results.

Wow, I sound a bit like an objectivist in the science thread.

I would also be very interested in reading more about stehno's measurements for his vibration management device/rack to see how effective it is at reducing internally generated distortions. If I understand Keith's recent post, these internal vibrations are not heard at the component's output, so there seems to be some disagreement about how significant these internal vibrations really are.

Perhaps Reid can re-enter the conversion to discuss the effect of these internal vibrations and whether or not his active isolation devices are able to counteract their effect.

Purite Audio said:

A solid state component, ie amp, dac, cd player, will vibrate in use,but it will be extremely low level, the components case will resonate more than the actual boards.
But that resonance will not be visible in the components output, that is the key point.
An engineer who works in vibration/resonance ,measuring vibration in jet engines, carried our some experiments and posted the results on a Uk audio forum,I will post a link, the results are very interesting.
Ball and cup devices such as still points, are not decoupling or isolating, they are directly coupling so any vibration from the device or from the structure will be passed unattenuated.
To isolate you need to use correctly loaded visco elastic material, or rolling air diaphragms, or active tables such as the Accurion.
Keith.

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Keith, so if I understand you correctly, these internal vibrations are not audible in the case of an SS amp. However, I have observed that SS amps are effected by external sources like floor borne vibrations. Isolation devices like my preloaded Vibraplanes make a positive audible improvement when placed under my SS amps.

Sorry guys, I don't have those measurements, the trial was a good 2+ yrs ago, and the assessment of gear other than the tt was done as an afterthought tbh. But the differences were audible and measurable, you'll have to take my word for it. Valves are microphonic by nature, so if you want to diss a whole technology, fine. Keith, we use valves because they provide the magic that your perfectly measuring gear would love to emulate. And if isolation can help, great.
Do you want to talk to me about Shun Mook Diamond Resonators that I'm going to combine w/my Symposium Acoustics Isis/Rollerblocks isolation?
Harlequin gets great results w/similar Stillpoints/Shun Mooks, hoping to emulate his positives.
Btw, still in the hunt for the Spiers table for my tt.

Purite Audio said:

That is interesting Marc, can you post those graphs?
Keith.

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we are not this place.

maybe join them in their fun and ask that question there. you will fit right in. they really know how to party.

Mike Lavigne said:

we are not this place.

maybe join them in their fun and ask that question there. you will fit right in. they really know how to party.

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Nothing better than downing a 6-pack while looking at some squiggly lines for hours on end.

PeterA said:

Fascinating. Spirit, could you explain more about how this was measured, and by what amount the measured distortion was reduced? You write that each of your components was tested under the Accurion unit. Do you have the measurements to share with us and to demonstrate the effectiveness of this device?

I would like to know more about how the measurements were carried out. I know I have heard the improvements in my own system, so I know isolation (in my case) works, but I have not read about measured results.

Wow, I sound a bit like an objectivist in the science thread.

I would also be very interested in reading more about stehno's measurements for his vibration management device/rack to see how effective it is at reducing internally generated distortions. If I understand Keith's recent post, these internal vibrations are not heard at the component's output, so there seems to be some disagreement about how significant these internal vibrations really are.

Perhaps Reid can re-enter the conversion to discuss the effect of these internal vibrations and whether or not his active isolation devices are able to counteract their effect.

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Peter,

Contrary to what is being said, good measurements properly carried with advanced methods will show differences in the electrical signals due to vibration even in most well built solid state equipment. The critical and never well understood question is whether and what level these small electrical differences are audible - a subjective affair.

Some decades ago I worked with FET input solid state preamplifiers in nuclear physics - there we always have oscilloscopes monitoring the signals. In order to know if the system was adequately powered and connected we gently tapped the thick aluminum box of the preamplifier and looked for the "thumps" in the screen.

Many times susceptibility of audio equipment to secondary effects should not be seen from the perspective of the signal, but thinking about the ever existing noise, that has a bandwidth between ultra low frequencies and the gigahertz, and can affect the signal in unexpected ways. And yes, I do not have prove of it, but it is written in classical text books of grounding and shielding. It is why we should have an open mind when debating high quality stereo sound reproduction.

Mike Lavigne said:

we are not this place.

maybe join them in their fun and ask that question there. you will fit right in. they really know how to party.

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Mike, There have been photos posted in this thread of people's vibration control devices. And we have had discussions about the different types of vibrations. Those who use these devices to address some of these vibrations have indeed heard positive results. However, the thread does not seem to be moving forward beyond these few observations, nice photos, and conflicting opinions.

I would like to learn more about this subject. If the sharing of measurements or any further in-depth discussion about this topic is discouraged, what is the point?

stehno, Keith and Spirit have all posted opinions, but I think these claims or observations need further elaboration, and I would welcome a discussion about how they arrived at their opinions.

I think that if we just keep repeating previous claims and discourage more in depth discussion, the topic will hang in limbo and the thread will quietly go away. That too is fine, I suppose, but I was hoping to learn something here and to possibly find ways to improve the sound of my system.

Bruce B said:

Hi Reid,

In regards to turntables, I understand how the Herzan may work for mechanical vibration coming up through the rack/table. How is the airborne vibration mitigated in relation to how it reacts to the tonearm/cartridge?

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Bruce asks a very good question which I think has gone unanswered in this thread. I also wonder if the vibrations from the turntable's motor can somehow be addressed with an active isolation device like the Herzan, or if those must be addressed within the design of the turntable itself.

PeterA said:

Mike, There have been photos posted in this thread of people's vibration control devices. And we have had discussions about the different types of vibrations. Those who use these devices to address some of these vibrations have indeed heard positive results. However, the thread does not seem to be moving forward beyond these few observations, nice photos, and conflicting opinions.

I would like to learn more about this subject. If the sharing of measurements or any further in-depth discussion about this topic is discouraged, what is the point?

stehno, Keith and Spirit have all posted opinions, but I think these claims or observations need further elaboration, and I would welcome a discussion about how they arrived at their opinions.

I think that if we just keep repeating previous claims and discourage more in depth discussion, the topic will hang in limbo and the thread will quietly go away. That too is fine, I suppose, but I was hoping to learn something here and to possibly find ways to improve the sound of my system.

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Keith asked Spirit for a graph to back up his listening claims. Keith has sang that tune for awhile (except for the products he sells).

interestingly he has never asked me for a graph.

Keith is one guy with a perspective. no big deal. but if that is where we are or where we are going it would be without me.

I respect that you enjoy the whole roundy-round with the measurement stuff. fine and good as long as we don't get to where a listening claim is met regularly with a request for proof.

as far as my curiosity on decoupling/isolation products I've done my own research and testing and have my own opinions. sure; I can look on the graphic read-out on my 2 Herzan shelves and watch the noise being attenuated. I can see cause and effect. and I can hear it. that is good enough for me.

oh and btw; in the last couple of weeks I've done quite a few acoustic changes to my room as well as tuned my speaker adjustments by ear and my next step is to take room measurements to see whether there are still bass response issues to adjust away. I see that as a necessary step in final room tuning. so i'm not anti-measurements at all. they have their time and place.

PeterA said:

However, I have observed that SS amps are effected by external sources like floor borne vibrations. Isolation devices like my preloaded Vibraplanes make a positive audible improvement when placed under my SS amps.

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Dear Peter,

Are the observations to which you refer sonic differences which were audible to you when someone walked on your floor? What were the circumstances of your observations, and what sonic differences did you perceive?

Mike Lavigne said:

Keith asked Spirit for a graph to back up his listening claims. Keith has sang that tune for awhile (except for the products he sells).

interestingly he has never asked me for a graph.

Keith is one guy with a perspective. no big deal. but if that is where we are or where we are going it would be without me.

I respect that you enjoy the whole roundy-round with the measurement stuff. fine and good as long as we don't get to where a listening claim is met regularly with a request for proof.

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No, he has not asked me for a graph either. I could not provide any, except for a recently made set of frequency response graphs that a friend made of my system and room showing, interestingly different results as cartridge loading was adjusted.

Yes, Keith has a perspective, and so do stehno and Reid, who started this thread and seems to have left. I wish he would return to share more of his perspective.

Actually, I don't enjoy the "roundy-round" with measurement stuff. Measurements have their place, and I usually only ask someone for them if he is making strong claims about a subject that I have not read others discuss hearing a difference. I am less interested in the measurement proof for something like your claim about the Herzan. I believe you and have heard similar results with my Vibraplane. Now if you claimed that the Herzan improved the performance of a specific component 55% more than a Vibraplane, then yes, I might be interested a bit more about why you make such a claim and how you know it. And that discussion might be off line.

I do not think that I have requested proof for listening claims that I too have heard in my system and about which there is fairly consistent agreement. It is the more outlandish claims that if left unsupported and I find difficult to understand, and sometimes, measurements will then add something to the discussion for clarity.

But like you, I don't like the argumentative tone that often creeps into some of these discussions, and unfortunately, sometimes I am guilty of contributing to that.

Purite Audio said:

You need to measure the output of your components to see whether the shelves are having any measurable benefit, you need to compare the output with and without the supporting shelf.
The platform may be attenuating vibration, but that does not mean it having an audible effect.
I use an active platform under my turntable, because both in terms of measurement and subjectively it made a positive improvement.
I would never consider using one under a solid state component.
Keith.

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Keith;

honestly it is hard to take you seriously. I sense you are sincere and so I respect that you are posting what you think. but to say that solid state gear cannot be helped by decoupling/isolation treatment as a broad generalization is simply wrong. and it causes me to wonder how you reach your conclusions. I wish you lived close so we could do a quick A/B and watch/hear how things work together.

mike

PeterA said:

Bruce asks a very good question which I think has gone unanswered in this thread. I also wonder if the vibrations from the turntable's motor can somehow be addressed with an active isolation device like the Herzan, or if those must be addressed within the design of the turntable itself.

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I almost went the active route as a consequence of results a friend was achieving with his setup, a VPI TNT 5 on a Newport stand. Then, he switched to a Stillpoints ESS rack with acrylic shelves using either Ultra SS or Ultra 5 under the individual components on the ESS. After hearing these results, I examined my table to understand if I could also benefit from applying one of these solutions. As a not-well-heeled audiophile stretching discretionary monies, I gravitated to the solution that provided the best performance per dollar spent. For me this meant using Stillpoints products. I first attached Ultra SS to the Aries plinth directly replacing the stock feet. Nice performance gain. After a few months, I replaced the SS with Ultra 5s. Another nice bump in performance. I then turned my attention to the motor. Replacing the pitiful OEM rubber feet by attaching 6/32 Ultra Minis was nothing short of astonishing. I wish I could have measured the drop in noise floor. Also revelatory was the increased wide band articulation, especially in the midbass and lower frequencies. Adding the Minis also allowed me to truly level the motor to the plinth for the first time. As such, I have no need to upgrade my TT and will be adding the magnetic drive system to the table as soon as VPI offers the promised retrofit to my Aries 1 TT. The other ancillary benefit is that my TT never seems to go out of level. I occasionally readjust the motor's leveling as its vibration result in some movement of the Minis studs in the taps of the motor housing. I can cure this with the addition of a jam nut on the stud, but I've not found a nut thin enough to fit on the stud and still allow for adjustment.

Stillpoints is actively working with a TT manufacturer that is incorporating our products into their design. Additionally, other electronics manufacturers and turntable refurbishers offer our products as upgrades to their standard offerings.

John

RonR said:

Dear Peter,

Are the observations to which you refer sonic differences which were audible to you when someone walked on your floor? What were the circumstances of your observations, and what sonic differences did you perceive?

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Hi Ron,

No, they were not audible when someone walked across the floor. I have a 200 year old suspended wide pine floor. It was quite bouncy. However, I have placed a concrete filled steel lolli column under the floor between each of my amps and speakers. I also have one under each of the front legs of my equipment rack. The floor does not move near those components. I installed these mostly to support the massive 625 lb weight of my amps, steel ballast plates and Vibraplanes with speakers a few feet away. My rack and equipment also weighs over 600 lbs.

I just did not want to risk the integrity of my floor with those loads plus people walking into the room. Of course, by preventing the floor boards from cracking, I also lessoned the perceived bounce of the floor.

The story of my air suspensions is a long one, but suffice it to say that I first tried a Townshend Seismic Sink under my unsuspended SME Model 10 turntable. Sound improved. I then bought a Vibraplane and sound improved further. I then bought the SME Model 30/12. I added a steel ballast plate to the Vibraplane and sound improved further. I also moved my SS turntable motor controller up on the steel ballast plate so that it too could be isolated on the Vibraplane. I heard an improvement here also.

Sometime during this I decided to try two more Vibraplanes under my amps. So the first thing I did was build birch ply platforms to have a flat and stable support for the three Vibraplane air footers under each unit. I installed the Vibraplanes under the SS amps and immediately heard an improvement. Then I preloaded them with steel ballast plates and the sound improved even further.

Here is an attempt to describe it: The sound of my system became more clear and defined. Bass resolution improved. Extension and articulation. Midrange and bass seemed to become more distinct and separate (less overlapped) resulting in a more natural sound. Bass impact also improved as well as dynamics because I think there is less blurring or distortion occurring but I don't really know. Things like the slow bowing of a cello took on a whole new level of string texture and wood body resonance. Low piano notes became much more colorful and full of information. It's silly, but it is like that video of the wine glass shaking on the isolation unit (Minus K or Herzan). The sound became less blurry. Or I am highly susceptible to video marketing.

In general, I heard the sound became more natural, more convincing and certainly more enjoyable. Two of my audio buddies also heard this before/after result.

I can not explain why the improvement in sound was so dramatic, but I think it has to do with very low frequency energy from the ground or foundation of the house making its way into the equipment. My house is built on rock ledge. Low frequencies, perhaps in the 5-15 hz region, that I can not easily perceive. I certainly can not feel the floor moving like from the sudden impact of a footfall. These are lower frequency vibrations.

Very interesting, Peter! Thank you for the detailed background!