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Thread: What do you use for vibration isolation?

  1. #21
    Member Sponsor [WBF Founding Member] Mike Lavigne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALF View Post
    Hi MikeL,

    Nice...quick question for you, did you find that linen or silk, tight weave or loose, absorbtive or relective, high or low count fabrics worked better for your acoustical wall coverings?

    In the past I used randomly arranged kitty toys, cotten mice and feathers worked the best. However, the results were not repeatable...every listening session, they would always be rearranged.

    Cheers!
    Alan
    in the spirit of your question, my answer would be to only use pure Egyptian Cotton with 1080 thread count with 24 carat gold thread interwoven. anything less would be just not worthy.

    enjoy.....and I hope that helps.

  2. #22
    Senior Member ALF's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Lavigne View Post
    in the spirit of your question, my answer would be to only use pure Egyptian Cotton with 1080 thread count with 24 carat gold thread interwoven. anything less would be just not worthy.

    enjoy.....and I hope that helps.
    Cool, thanks Mike!

  3. #23
    Member Sponsor [WBF Founding Member] Mike Lavigne's Avatar
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    Alan,

    actually; the fabric type seems not to matter very much. I've tried 4 different fabrics at various stages of my process so far and they all seem to work just fine. all you are doing with the fabric is to knock down the high frequency reflections (without changing tonality). any fabric with a bit of texture is fine. the bigger issue with fabric is how easy it might be to cut straight, and without a bunch of unraveling frayed ends making a mess. and some fabric seems to lay flat and other fabric always looks wrinkled. so some is easier to work with but for my purposes they are all similar in performance for the job.

    now that I know where I want the fabric i'll get someone professional to install the proper product so it looks right for the long term. right now all the fabric is just tacked onto the walls and ceiling.

    the key advantage to fabric as opposed to other wall treatments is that it will not absorb too much energy and deaden the sound like some diffusion products or fabric covered fiberglass. fabric seems not to have a downside.
    Last edited by Mike Lavigne; 08-17-2015 at 09:04 AM.

  4. #24
    [Industry Expert] ddk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    I wonder if there is a consensus on this topic. Do audiophiles and others in the industry agree that the vast majority of distortions plaguing components are induced by mechanical energy?

    The statement seems to imply that there is a consensus.

    I think that there is a view that distortions are the primary reason that audio systems do not sound more like live music. If that is indeed the case, then in the current thread about system priorities, vibration control or now distortion control, should rank as number one on the list, if these mechanical vibrations are the leading cause of distortions. I placed it near the middle of my priority list, and the subject seems to be completely missing on other posters lists of priorities in that thread, unless they are including it in "tweaks" and rank it at the bottom of their list.

    So I am curious about just how important the subject of this particular thread is to people and their ideas about system performance.

    I don't know about consensus Peter but Stehno is right, there's mechanical vibration and resonance generated by electronics and dealing with them will improve the sound and there are shelves/racks/footers etc. that don't dissipate this mechanical energy properly and some even reflect it back as Stehno suggests. This is a different thing from the air and floor born vibrations you're thinking of.

    david
    Audio Industry Affiliate:Lamm, Ortofon, ZYX, Keith Monks, Audio Desk, Jensen Transformers, Pheonix Engineering.
    Specialty & Unique Offerings: Vintage horn speakers, Vintage and Modern Turntables, Analog Accessories.

    System 1: Horns+Tubes+Vinyl and digital too- Listening Room 1
    System 2: Horns+Tubes+Vinyl and digital too- Listening Room 2- Near field setup

  5. #25
    Senior Member ALF's Avatar
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    Mike,

    Thanks for the additional information; I appreciate the detail and your balanced sense of humor...best of luck with the installation!

    I hope life is treating both yourself and your lovely bride well!

    Cheers!
    Alan

  6. #26
    Eh....maybe a funny suggestion but can't someone test a Herzan?!? Preferably against some High-end Ueber rack ;-)

  7. #27
    [Industry Expert] ddk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reid.Whitney View Post
    Hi Sean,

    The active isolation is achieved using piezoelectric sensors that read the vibration characteristics of a surface and provides an inverse force to the top plate of the TS Series, providing a neutral/stable platform. They sense incoming vibrations and dynamically react to them.

    There are a few primary differences between the active isolation tables and the air-isolation tables. The most important being the varying degrees of vibration each system will compensate. In total, there are six types of vibrations that can effect an instrument, microscope or high-end audio device. The TS/AVI Series are able to properly compensate for all six types of vibrations. Air-Isolation systems are not capable of isolating all six and primarily focus on the verticle motion of movement.

    The second most important difference is the frequency range each technology is capable of compensating. Whether this point is relevant to high-end audio equipment, I am not sure, but with regards to nanotechnology applications and high-resolution microscopes, the lower frequencies are better compensated in an active isolation system than in an air-isolation system. For your reference, The TS Series is able to begin isolating at 0.7 Hz up to 1000 and beyond. The Onyx Series (our air-isolation system), is capable of isolating from 4 hz - 1000 Hz and beyond. Depending on the application and product being supported by the vibration isolation system, the sensitivities to lower frequency vibrations can effect the quality of research data. If you are interested in a direct comparison of active v. passive vibration isolation, please visit: http://www.herzan.com/resources/tuto...s-passive.html.

    I have provided an image below that helps demonstrate what active isolation works to achieve.

    Attachment 4063


    For all price and product information related questions, please send me an email via reid@herzan.com. I don't want this thread to be considered a solicitation, moreover, an understanding of what is used and peoples approaches/ideas to combatting vibrations. If there is room for me to help, I will gladly do so.

    Best,

    Reid Whitney
    Hi Reid,

    There are many types of audiophile racks and some are a lot more sophisticated than the sorbothane/rubber band ones you mentioned. I know nothing about electron microscopes but I assume the key goals for vision are isolation & stabilization, its different from audio where sound is the target and affected by other things beyond isolation. Sound quality to a great extent is still subjective and there are variables involved with audio electronics and source components affecting the sound that need to be dealt with and you don't have when stabilizing a scientific instrument. You can isolate all you want, certainly floor born vibrations (I haven't found airborne ones sonically an issue in domestic environments) affect the sound but I can't tell you at which frequencies it becomes important. 0.7 hz might not be a problem while higher frequencies above 1000 hz can be very important, you need to do your research. Electronics generate vibration, heat energy and you also have to deal with chassis resonance that needs to be dissipated and/or tuned out beyond the audible range, the platform and the type of material underneath the equipment has a direct effect on the sound. Have you studied this? How do Herzan active platforms deal with electronic born vibrations and resonance and how it affects the sound? In case of turntables and some CD players you're also dealing with rotational energy, a stable and solid foundation is needed. By definition an active base isn't a solid foundation and I'm not saying that its always bad, I simply don't know how your platforms work. This rotational energy along with the motor will create constant vibrations and resonance that is top down, how will your platform deal with this simultaneously with floor and air born vibrations that it will detect and react? Will the active stabilization counteract the rotational inertia of platter which will directly impact the sound? Your application and probably research isn't audio specific Reid but can you answer any of my questions? IME the best sonic results come from solid, high mass foundations utilizing some kind of passive isolation in combination with properly engineered platform. I have found active isolation lacking for audio applications.

    david
    Audio Industry Affiliate:Lamm, Ortofon, ZYX, Keith Monks, Audio Desk, Jensen Transformers, Pheonix Engineering.
    Specialty & Unique Offerings: Vintage horn speakers, Vintage and Modern Turntables, Analog Accessories.

    System 1: Horns+Tubes+Vinyl and digital too- Listening Room 1
    System 2: Horns+Tubes+Vinyl and digital too- Listening Room 2- Near field setup

  8. #28
    Member Sponsor [WBF Founding Member] Johnny Vinyl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Vinyl View Post
    I can't afford the Herzan's or even Stillpoints, so I've had to improvise. I've been using butcher block with hockey pucks/felt pad coverings for years. Recently I changed to a butcher block that has feet and added the bottom portion of some Vibrapods (inverted) with very pleasant results. So if you're like me and my situation I would definitely recommend you give this a try.

    Attachment 21835
    I guess it's too much to ask for some opinion on what I posted. Unless, of course, this issue only pertains to those who....ah, never mind. Getting really tired of the exclusionary attitude here.
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  9. #29
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    Hey Johnny,

    I am intrigued! A few questions about your isolation design there...

    1. What did the beige block do when you inserted it? (as compared to straight on top of the black Sonoma)?

    2. How 'inert', 'heavy' is the black Sonora platform underneath? Since you've got a TT on top, i am guessing that your upper isolation platform relies on what is happening with the Sonora.

    3. If super-heavy, inert, then presumably you are placing the TT on top of the isolation platform to give yourself that extra bit of isolation from what is going with the Sonoma (or from any vibrations that might be carrying up thru the Sonoma)?

    If NOT super-heavy, inert...have you you played around with mass damping the Sonoma? Just curious.

    Thanks for taking the time...always nice to see how other people do it.
    Speaker Wilson X-1/SLAMMS / Velodyne DD18+
    Source Zanden 4Box Digital
    Amp CJ GAT 2 / Gryphon Colosseum
    Cable SC/IC / PC TA Opus Gen5/MM2 / PAD25th/Sablon GCUber
    Isolation Sandwiches Under: HRS/Stillpoints/Auralex Top: HRS/Artesania/Entreq/EAT/90kg Mass
    Power/Ground/Shield 7 x 16A Furutech / Burmester948+NordostQX4 / Tripoint TroySig+Thor / Entreq Atlantis/Receivus/Everest/Wrap
    Room/Tube Stillpoints Apertures / Amperex Mullard
    Headphone Sennheiser HD650 / Arcam rHead/ApogeeGroove

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by ddk View Post
    Hi Reid,

    There are many types of audiophile racks and some are a lot more sophisticated than the sorbothane/rubber band ones you mentioned. I know nothing about electron microscopes but I assume the key goals for vision are isolation & stabilization, its different from audio where sound is the target and affected by other things beyond isolation. Sound quality to a great extent is still subjective and there are variables involved with audio electronics and source components affecting the sound that need to be dealt with and you don't have when stabilizing a scientific instrument. You can isolate all you want, certainly floor born vibrations (I haven't found airborne ones sonically an issue in domestic environments) affect the sound but I can't tell you at which frequencies it becomes important. 0.7 hz might not be a problem while higher frequencies above 1000 hz can be very important, you need to do your research. Electronics generate vibration, heat energy and you also have to deal with chassis resonance that needs to be dissipated and/or tuned out beyond the audible range, the platform and the type of material underneath the equipment has a direct effect on the sound. Have you studied this? How do Herzan active platforms deal with electronic born vibrations and resonance and how it affects the sound? In case of turntables and some CD players you're also dealing with rotational energy, a stable and solid foundation is needed. By definition an active base isn't a solid foundation and I'm not saying that its always bad, I simply don't know how your platforms work. This rotational energy along with the motor will create constant vibrations and resonance that is top down, how will your platform deal with this simultaneously with floor and air born vibrations that it will detect and react? Will the active stabilization counteract the rotational inertia of platter which will directly impact the sound? Your application and probably research isn't audio specific Reid but can you answer any of my questions? IME the best sonic results come from solid, high mass foundations utilizing some kind of passive isolation in combination with properly engineered platform. I have found active isolation lacking for audio applications.

    david
    Looking forward to the answer. I have not tried these Herzan/actives myself.

    In my own system, i have found 'success' starting with a 3-4" thick birch ply rack + 1" thick slab of slate on floor that weighs several hundred pounds...and then each component sits on top of either its own set of Stillpoints or HRS M3 platform...and then each component is then further mass damped on top (in some cases with 7kg...to upwards of 20kg of brass weight...but always with the brass weight on top of some kind of HRS or Artesania damping plate on top of the component (metal weight is never directly on top of the component).

    i call them isolation sandwiches...so 7 isolation 'sandwiches' for all 7 components...plus bigger sandwiches for sub, speakers and speaker cable network boxes.
    Speaker Wilson X-1/SLAMMS / Velodyne DD18+
    Source Zanden 4Box Digital
    Amp CJ GAT 2 / Gryphon Colosseum
    Cable SC/IC / PC TA Opus Gen5/MM2 / PAD25th/Sablon GCUber
    Isolation Sandwiches Under: HRS/Stillpoints/Auralex Top: HRS/Artesania/Entreq/EAT/90kg Mass
    Power/Ground/Shield 7 x 16A Furutech / Burmester948+NordostQX4 / Tripoint TroySig+Thor / Entreq Atlantis/Receivus/Everest/Wrap
    Room/Tube Stillpoints Apertures / Amperex Mullard
    Headphone Sennheiser HD650 / Arcam rHead/ApogeeGroove

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