Absolute Sound is Rubbish

[audioguy]

Based upon the lexicon demo i heard at Cedia last year, two channel recordings can produce a much more realistic presentation when processed the way lexicon did with a bunch of speakers -- way more realistic than the very best 2 channel systems I have ever heard. If Lexicon ever delivers that product, i will purchase it and however many more speakers i need to make it work. A huge transformation in listening to 2 channel music!!

[whart]

I also experimented with additional channels derived from two channel and it really depended on the source material. I used everything from very basic hafler-type decoder, to more elaborate early surround processors. when it worked, it was great. a dear friend came to listen to the set-up one day, old Quad ESLs with a small rear channel set-up using very modest bookshelf speakers that were not very loud, run through a processor (i think it was a Sony back then) using some delay. He made a grimace when he saw the set up, listened for a little while, then asked me to turn off the rear channel system. A moment later, he asked me to turn it back on.
I don't know what Meridian is currently doing, I liked the sound of their processors for home theatre. When I was more interested in home theatre, i ran the gamut of processors available at the time- to my ears, one of the cheapest, a Fosgate, actually sounded better than the Lexicon, which sounded very harsh. I trust things have improved on that front since the early to mid-90's.

[tomelex]

You hit the nail right on the head Tim.

It isn't that we don't accept the limitations of two channel, we are simply trying to mitigate them. Content is king after all and while as Kal says there are thousands of titles out there, unfortunately they could be the wrong thousands.

To me it always comes down to what the objective is at the outset. In my case I'm not trying to be at THE concert, I'm trying to simulate being in A concert. I think that is an important distinction. As far as individual instruments or voices go, it would be nice if I could easily tell a Strad from a Guarneri if I'd actually heard two of them live side by side but I'm happy enough being able to tell easily if it is a violin. Same goes for electric guitars and guitar amps or different Pianos. Ultimately I'd have to draw on my own experiences to do that. Now, would it be live or recorded? Live preferably but it isn't always possible. Lets talk voices. Who has heard at least ten of your favorite singers live and unamplified? Heck, make it five, make it two even. He or she would have to be your close buddy. To make things even more impossible a whole lot of my favorite singers are dead!

Should I now get hung up about this? I could but choose not to. I may not be able to recreate being at THE concert but I think I've gotten some success at placing myself in A concert with only two channels mainly because that's what I've got. Did I stray from flat response? Acoustically yes I did, I had my engineer design a bit of bass lift in. Electrically? I believe I have done so as well by selecting particular tubes to replace the otherwise flat stock ones. What I didn't do was go so far as to make a violin sound like a cello because I like warmth (who doesn't anyway?) or a Steinway like a Bosendorfer or Pavarotti like Domingo. Just a nip here and a tuck there that incidentally makes for a slightly more forgiving system. I always tune my system ruler flat and later de-tune it for everyday use. The last thing I want is to be limited to so called audiophile approved music or synthesized music.

Jack, while you are not trying to be at THE concert, but at A concert, the absolute sound concept (taken literally as what the words mean vs what some audio magazine title infers about referential blah blah) sets up IMO impossible demands or expectations for stereo. And there are those who claim to be within a cats whisker of replicating THE concert.

Your take on all of this is logical and makes sense. Somehow, shining a light on what a stereo can not do has caused folks to rail after the messenger and his equipment etc. I just really do wonder if after listening to the local municipal band down at the park some of these folks would still turn to me and say their system at home is almost as good as the live event.

Perhaps they do own mulitple 1500 watt amplifiers and huge speaker arrays and have large fields outback of their houses and are enjoying the absolute sound. This is whats best forum after all.

I do wonder about mitigating stereo limitations though. I think they just are limitations if one recognizes them first. I suppose you are saying that you do the best you can (by adjustment, positioning, room treatments, etc) with what you have which I think we all do to some extent. But some folks are so impressed with what they have that they forgot what is was they were trying to reproduce..that is..if they belive in the absolute sound. If they believe in their preferences, then whose to argue.

Last friday went to the local street dance and heard a band called blue steel 1540 or something like that. They were the typical speakers on each side of the stage with some back speaker monitors behind the players and if some one told me their system could pretty well replicate their sound I would agree, as it was essentially a stereo system to start with.

But in no way (and I am preaching to the choir in your case) can I say that about what the municipal band sounded like down at the park.

And that is the absolute sound, atleast at a given space with a given set of ears. And other than Micro describing some system he heard, no one here, with perhaps the best audio gear in the world, has claimed their system can project or replicate that municipal band.

So, that is reassuring to me anyway.

Tom

[tomelex]

I understand you Tomelex.

We ask you what equipment you have ,not to ridicule it, but to answer these questions. If you cannot hear the characteristic is it because you are incapable of hearing it; your equipment is incapable of producing it;or the characteristic does not exist.

We are suggesting perhaps your equipment is incapaple of producing it. I owned both Hafler preamap and amp.

So looking at your equipment I come to the following conclusion.

I think your brain requires measurements, but your soul craves SET'S. Smile.

Shining a light on the shortcomings of stereo? Can you concede that's just a tad presumptious?

What can I say about what you said about ears, gear, or characteristics? But, actually I am not sure you understand me too well. I am the guy who believes in processors, tone controls, etc. I listen and or adjust the sound to be the way I want it, but I start out with the essentials being as neutral as needed to be.....and other than my transducers, the electronics gets out of the way.

Presumptious about shining a light on the shortcomings of stereo...no...I am opening discussions about stereo. 99.9% of what I have is stereo material, and I have no problems listening to it. The poor dang limited reproduction system is what most of us are stuck with. But absolute sound it is not. When I say that all hell breaks loose, and presuming to use those words as the basis of expectations from two channels gaurantees no one in our lifetimes is going to get there...and how can I say that...well

no

one

has claimed their system can replicate that municipal band, that absolute sound.

no

one

That to me indeed would be way more that a tad presumtious. (and thanks for spelling out that word...I could never get that spelled right!)


Tom

[NorthStar]

I'm not dismissing it Bob, but I've done these searches before, and there is little there for me. I like some classical just fine, but it represents maybe 2% of my collection.

I see very clearly now; thanx for that precision.

When someone out there starts remastering the great live and "live in studio" jazz, rock, blues, folk, country and pop recordings to surround with the objective of creating a better ambience and better in-room response (due to the much higher % of direct vs reflected sound), I'll personally develop an interest. When I can get Live At Folsom Prison, It's Too Late To Stop Now, The Legendary Prestige Sessions, Allman Brothers Live At the Fillmore, Waiting For Columbus, The Rolling Thunder Review, Waltz For Betty...and when I know that there is enough of a market for the format that I can expect more great live records to be remastered to it every month and new releases to be available on well-used multi-channel instead of surround sound parlor tricks, that's when an investment in the format, followed by an on-going investment in the media to support it, will be worth it for me.

These music genres that you just mentioned above (in particular Rock, Blues, Folk, Country & Pop),
you cannot expect great stuff in multichannel; more likely they will put some instruments behind you, which ain't good.
Two-channel Stereo remastered material of that style is perfectly fine.

* After Classical music, Jazz is the second best type for multichannel surround well done with intelligent taste (not all of them, but several ones are good, very good). ...They put ambiance, the Jazz club reverbs, and the people clapping in those rear/side channels. Because the rear channels from multichannel SACDs are positioned at 135 degree behind you (I like 125 degree myself, more or less according to the material). It's a preference's choice that comes from experimentation and extensive listening.

If there's enough audiophile and classical material out there to make it worth it to you now, congratulations. Enjoy.

I do I do I do; so others like Karl.

The overwhelming majority of the music I want, old and new, is available or coming out only as 2-channel and redbook, or downloads of even lower resolution. And it really looks like it's going to stay that way. So I will accept the limitations, try to make the most of the capabilities, and enjoas y the music.

YMMV.

Tim

---Hallelujah!

[NorthStar]

... Shining a light on the shortcomings of stereo? Can you concede that's just a tad presumptious?

... That to me indeed would be way more that a tad presumtious. (and thanks for spelling out that word...I could never get that spelled right!)

Tom

----- "Presumptuous", with a "u", and not an "i" (after the letter "t").

And Tom, you also forgot the letter "p" (before the "t").

[tomelex]

----- "Presumptuous", with a "u", and not an "i" (after the letter "t").

And Tom, you also forgot the letter "p" (before the "t").

damn, I'm hopeless... and leaving myself open to...

Tom

[NorthStar]

---Typos are just 'abso!ute' fun.

[JackD201]

Jack, while you are not trying to be at THE concert, but at A concert, the absolute sound concept (taken literally as what the words mean vs what some audio magazine title infers about referential blah blah) sets up IMO impossible demands or expectations for stereo. And there are those who claim to be within a cats whisker of replicating THE concert.

Your take on all of this is logical and makes sense. Somehow, shining a light on what a stereo can not do has caused folks to rail after the messenger and his equipment etc. I just really do wonder if after listening to the local municipal band down at the park some of these folks would still turn to me and say their system at home is almost as good as the live event.

Perhaps they do own mulitple 1500 watt amplifiers and huge speaker arrays and have large fields outback of their houses and are enjoying the absolute sound. This is whats best forum after all.

I do wonder about mitigating stereo limitations though. I think they just are limitations if one recognizes them first. I suppose you are saying that you do the best you can (by adjustment, positioning, room treatments, etc) with what you have which I think we all do to some extent. But some folks are so impressed with what they have that they forgot what is was they were trying to reproduce..that is..if they belive in the absolute sound. If they believe in their preferences, then whose to argue.

Last friday went to the local street dance and heard a band called blue steel 1540 or something like that. They were the typical speakers on each side of the stage with some back speaker monitors behind the players and if some one told me their system could pretty well replicate their sound I would agree, as it was essentially a stereo system to start with.

But in no way (and I am preaching to the choir in your case) can I say that about what the municipal band sounded like down at the park.

And that is the absolute sound, atleast at a given space with a given set of ears. And other than Micro describing some system he heard, no one here, with perhaps the best audio gear in the world, has claimed their system can project or replicate that municipal band.

So, that is reassuring to me anyway.

Tom

I guess where I disagree with you Tom is with the strength of your conclusion since I do believe every individual has referential standards formed over our lifetimes. While I agree that 2 channel can't get us there, I don't believe anything but the real thing can either. A live event engages all senses. Heck even iMax is so far off it isn't funny. So to me it becomes a matter of picking your poison or simply doing what you can with what you've got. Now I've experienced some pretty f-in mind blowing two channel. In one instance I was enthralled yet I felt uncomfortable. It took a couple of minutes for me to figure out why. I was missing the chatter and movement of an audience. I also could hardly see anything because it was so dark. What I was hearing didn't line up with what should have come with that sound. Clearly I wasn't at THE concert, but I felt as though I was in A disconcerting concert, pun intended.

In any case, I think there is a natural divergence when it comes to sound reproduction. One branches off to hearing what's on the recording and only what's on the recording and the other branches off to integrating what's on the recording into an independent acoustic environment wherein the environment itself is an exploitable variable. It doesn't really matter how many processed, discreet and play out channels we're talking about really. Binaural is indeed trippy and I do bring out the Stax' and get my fix of Pearl Jam, Ottmar and even the occasional virtual barbershop but to me it is simply a different experience. Headphones will never give me the visceral part of things even if it gives me the spatial. I think the majority of the members here, myself included, belong in the second branch albeit likely for myriad, sometimes differing reasons. While I've yet to experience and don't believe I ever will experience being at THE concert, I have experienced many concert like experiences through 2 channel systems.

I really don't think the dissenters are even claiming that they are getting THE concert experience but rather that they do get A concert like experience with two channel. If it is in fact the latter, I've got no reason not to believe them really.

To be honest, I haven't really read HP's definition of The Absolute Sound but if that means something resembling what one would expect to hear live to a very high degree, I personally have no problem with that. If anything, it is a good reminder to get out more and support the artists. God knows the industry is in shambles and they need all the help they can get.

[Phelonious Ponk]

A "concert like" experience. Sure. Open to B R O A D interpretation like so much Audiophile language, but sure. But let's make no mistake. There may not be anyone here using the words THE "concert experience," but there are many - here and throughout the audiophile community - who claim feats beyond physics, engineering and reason, who claim magic from their systems daily on the internet boards. The may not have chosen THE concert experience, they may have reproduced "the original event," or the "sense of space" in the hall, or the "soundstage of the venue," instead, and done this in spite the fact that the it wasn't even recorded as they heard it. It doesn't matter, it's not science, it's not reason, it's not reality. It's magic. And if you dare to question it a few will descend upon your system, your ears, your experience, your mother's virtue. But just a few. Most of them are nice guys, just a bit over-enthused and thoroughly enjoying their copious expectation bias. Here. Elsewhere they're nasty as hell.

And so when someone...Tom this time....reads something that really is little more than another straw on the weary camel's back and thinks WTF?!!! And says "rubbish." And thinks, "damn, I said that out loud, huh?" All I've got for him is I hear you, brother. I feel your pain.

Tim