dallasjustice

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Apr 12, 2011
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For some of you that don't Nyal, you should know him. Nyal is an acoustician. His mission in life is to improve the sound in your listening room using real measurement tools and real acoustics knowledge. I built an addition onto my house. Nyal did not design my listening room. I did the best I could under the circumstances. My room is 14'6"x24'x9'3", 5/8" soundboard over standard wall studs and a double wood floor with green glue in between (nothing special for sure). I knew I would need room treatments. I didn't know where to begin. I discovered the XTZ room analyzer and that's how I met Nyal, by phone. Nyal showed me how to use it. He really didn't have to because it's so easy to use, but I have been down the DRC road before and had been sorely disappointed.

Where do the speakers go?! I pushed them around alot before I met Nyal. I wasn't using any measurement gear. The first measurements taken with XTZ showed that the most dominate room mode was centered at 47Hz @12.5db. Nyal advised me that room treatments would touch it and if I didn't want another set of subs in the rear of the room to cancel this mode, I would need to find the null for this room mode. Nyal showed me how to do this simply using the mic and the RTA function in XTZ. I found the null almost exactly where Nyal predicted it would be; 5'2" from the front wall.
Here's bass response before Nyal:
before treatment bass.jpg

Nyal came up with a room treatment design and I implemented it with the help of my dealer Scotty Warren and my other friend Bill Gainer. Here's are some photos of my room:
P1040229.jpg P1040230.jpg P1040233.jpg

After the treatments were setup and I dialed in the toe-in (3/8"), I was ready for parametric EQ. This is the part where most audiophiles will go running for the door. Although Nyal is a proponent of EQ, he does not think EQ can solve all problems. At this point my decay time was about .4 seconds evenly across the frequency spectrum. I was told that my room would sound dead and "uninvolving" with all of these treatments. I don't hear it. The decay time is perfect for me. I am not a live music re-creator. I simply want the musical performance as it was originally recorded.

How to EQ? As you can see, I only use a music server for my source. I have a custom windows music server. I run Jriver is media server mode. Jriver is the best software I have tried and I have tried them all on mac and windows, almost. Nyal recommended a VST plugin called FabFilter. It's very easy to use. Nyal and I ran one more XTZ measurement and then Nyal recommended a total of 6 bands of parametric EQ (all low frequency). XTZ has a simulation mode so I was able to test his recommendations out and this is what the result was:
after treatment and DRC.jpg


Fabfilter is totally transparent. I can turn it on and off and I lose nothing in the higher frequencies. The only difference that can be heard is the corrected frequencies. Here's a screeshot of the fabfilter plugin for Jriver:


All of the work Nyal did was remote. Nyal takes a teaching approach to his work. I learned a lot during this process and I feel much more comfortable with things like room treatments and EQ than I used to feel. Thank you Nyal! My system is no longer there. I can close my eyes and the music just flows from another dimension.
 

flez007

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Aug 31, 2010
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I am a firm beleiver of room treatment, and taking the professional route is the way to go IMHO, not sure but looks to me I have read from Nyal somewhere eles in this same forum. (nice system/setup BTW).
 

MrAcoustat

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Jun 5, 2012
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I also am a believer in room treatment BUT in a dedicated room, if all you have is a living room then you have to work with what you have and a livingroom is not a recording studio you may have very good intentions but life is life always remember that there are many audiophiles that would be very happy with what you have.

PS: Not the best set up, but i have seen worst, be happy whith what you have.

View attachment 3805
 

Nyal Mellor

Industry Expert
Jul 14, 2010
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First off, thanks for the great writeup and photos! It was great working with you on your listening room :)

For those of you that are interested all the treatments used in the room are from Primacoustic. They are a relatively new onto the acoustics scene and are based in Canada. Their treatment is extremely effective from an acoustical perspective, reasonably priced and they have quite a wide range of products including diffusers, absorbers and bass traps. They also keep everything in stock which is the opposite of most acoustics companies who make everything to order. Whilst RPG is my premium acoustic treatment line, since their products are awesome and available in a ton of fabric wraps and finishes, their lead time is like that of a fine furniture company. In this case the OP wanted to get his room treated ASAP, which meant Primacoustic was perfect.

We used Primacoustic MaxTraps, FullTraps, 3" Control Columns, FlexiFusers , Razorblades and Stratus.

The MaxTraps were double stacked in all room corners, the FullTraps on the front wall to reduce the speaker boundary interference caused by the superposition of the direct sound from the speaker and the reflected sound from the back wall.

The FlexiFusers were used at the first reflection points on the sidewalls and the Razorblade at the first reflection point on the back wall. I would have liked to use more Razorblades but there was an errant light switch in the way which prevented us from doing so. The great thing about the FlexiFusers is that they have these 'vanes' that you can adjust to change the balance of reflected vs direct sound. Since the side wall is such an important location for soundstaging and imaging this allows each person to adjust things to their preference. More absorption = more focused soundstage, less absorption = wider soundstage. If the speakers are well enough behaved off axis (which these ones are, as we validated through analysis of the spectral decay of the mid and high frequencies in the room), then you are free to do what you want subjectively with the side walls.

The Stratus are hung in a cloud to absorb the first ceiling reflection point (I have not yet measured a multiway speaker that has good enough vertical off axis performance to warrant use of a diffuser) and the Control Columns were specced to remove the side to side flutter echo across the listening position and provide additional decay time reduction.

Considering that there are no separate subs in this system the bass response we ended up with is extremely flat. Obviously the EQ helped quite a bit here, and I am a firm believer in using it below 100Hz, especially for two channel listening where there is only one sweet spot. For home theaters with multiple seats you first have to get seat to seat variability as low as possible with multiple subs and careful seat positioning before applying EQ if it is to be as effective.

I have some graphs to post but those will have to wait until later as it is BBQ time!
 

dallasjustice

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Before my wife kicked me out of the living room I had really nice bass with minimal treatments. Your setup looks alot cleaner than mine was in the living room.

The hardest part in my dedicated room is bass. Everything above 200hz is flat and RT is pretty flat across the board at around .4 seconds.
 

dallasjustice

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It's nice to have subs with alot of controls. I made a couple of adjustments and here's my new corrected bass response:
xo4, vol 6, phase 180 corrected v1.jpg

also, here's a screenshot of fabfilter EQ settings:
fabfilter corrections.jpg
 

dallasjustice

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Apr 12, 2011
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Just my personal opinion, but I would never use additive EQ and only subtractive EQ at <3dB.

Graphs look great though.

Bruce, I found this thing called a volume knob on my plate amps. I re-ran my measurements with said volume turned up slightly. You are correct. It is better to give than receive. :) Here's the new measurement:
xo4, vol 6, phase 180 corrected v1.jpg
and my new EQ settings; no need to add any gain into EQ now:
vol8,phase180,eq0,rakelevel,correctedv1.jpg
 

Peter Breuninger

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Jul 20, 2010
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Nice looking system. How long have you been a BMC'er?
 

dallasjustice

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Apr 12, 2011
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Thanks Peter!
I have had it about a month. The dac and amps work very well together and the amps mate nicely with the YGs. I think they are the 5th amp combo I have tried and they are by far the best.
 

Bruce B

WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
Apr 25, 2010
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Bruce, I found this thing called a volume knob on my plate amps. I re-ran my measurements with said volume turned up slightly. You are correct. It is better to give than receive. :) Here's the new measurement:and my new EQ settings; no need to add any gain into EQ now:

Great job!
 

Nyal Mellor

Industry Expert
Jul 14, 2010
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SF Bay Area, CA, USA
Here are some interesting graphs for you. The 'before' graphs are as we started, before any acoustic treatment. The 'after' graphs are based on the after-treatment and post-calibration results excl. the EQ boosts (I generally don't add boosts during calibration, but leave it to client preference).

The graphs are just showing the bass response <250Hz which IMO is one of the hardest areas to sort out and relies on speaker positioning, treatment and calibration to get an optimal result.

Before vs. after 1/12th octave:
View attachment 3829

Before vs. after 1/3rd octave (as per the Acoustical Measurement standards I like to look at things at multiple levels of resolution):
View attachment 3830

Before bass decay:
View attachment 3831

After bass decay:
Bass decay after.jpg

With reference to the bass decay graphs, note how the 'ringing' of the room modes (look at the tails that extend in the horizontal, time domain) have been very much reduced above about 70Hz. This is a result of the room treatment. You can also see that the tail around 50Hz has very much gone. This was the result of the change in the speaker positioning relative to that room mode (we basically put the speakers in a null for that room mode).
 
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amirm

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Apr 2, 2010
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Nicely done guys. Unrelated to the topic but I am curious what that heavy cord is that is going from the ceiling down in the back? HDMI feed for the future projection or something else?
 

dallasjustice

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Nicely done guys. Unrelated to the topic but I am curious what that heavy cord is that is going from the ceiling down in the back? HDMI feed for the future projection or something else?

That the HDMI is for future projector. I held off on the screen and projector until I got 2 channel settled in. I really love music and the movie thing is just to make the wife happier. I am holding out as long as possible. :)
 

Nyal Mellor

Industry Expert
Jul 14, 2010
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That the HDMI is for future projector. I held off on the screen and projector until I got 2 channel settled in. I really love music and the movie thing is just to make the wife happier. I am holding out as long as possible. :)

You should hold out a bit longer for the RED laser projector. I have a feeling it is going to be awesome :) Maybe we'll even get a demo at CEDIA..
 

NorthStar

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Feb 8, 2011
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You should hold out a bit longer for the RED laser projector. I have a feeling it is going to be awesome :) Maybe we'll even get a demo at CEDIA..

--- Hi Nyal,

It seems that front projectors is an area of the Home Theater Cinema 'gear' that just keeps improving every six months or so.
And the prices are always coming down as well. Perhaps not this particular one from your link at $10,000 right now, but I'm sure it will be half of that (street price) in another twelve months or so.

It's about time that we now have front projectors that no longer need bulb replacements every six months.
Right there is a good saving; if you keep your projector for five years or so, but then, in just three years it will be already obsolete, because much better front projectors will be available, and for less.

I am waiting for the day where all films are filmed at 48fps and with projectors faithfully reproducing it.
...Before 4K, as it is much more a beneficial advancement in moving pictures. ...And forget 3D.

I can certainly anticipate a much brighter future. :b
 
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audioguy

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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--- It seems that front projectors is an area of the Home Theater Cinema 'gear' that just keeps improving every six months or so.
And the prices are always coming down as well. Perhaps not this particular one from your link at $10,000 right now, but I'm sure it will be half of that (street price) in another twelve months or so.

Not necessarily a reason to not buy. [His is a better reason ;)] I enjoyed my original JVC RS1 for 5 years before recently upgrading to the RS55. The changes in between were many but the incremental improvements were small.

It's about time that we now have front projectors that no longer need bulb replacements every six months.
Right there is a good saving; if you keep your projector for five years or so, but then, in just three years it will be already obsolete, because much better front projectors will be available, and for less.

I am waiting for the day where all films are filmed at 48fps and with projectors faithfully reproducing it.
...Before 4K, as it is much more a beneficial advancement in moving pictures. ...And forget 3D.

That could be a while. Clearly the rate of improvement in video is far, far, far greater than audio and technology keeps finding ways to get higher and higher video capabilities at lower or the same cost. As an example, the current entry level JVC projector at about $3000 is clearly better than the 5 year old one I replaced that cost about $7000!!! That said, the rate of improvement has not and will not keep me from enjoying the technology. An even better example is the 55 inch Samsung Plasma we have hung over our fireplace. I paid about $2,000 5 years ago. A few months ago, we purchased an improved version of that TV, a 32 inch LCD and a 22 inch LCD and the cost for all three was about $1400 !!

And I agree with you on 3D. While it is much improved from when it was first released (was it in the 50's?), to me, it is still just a gimmick. The audio that goes with a film does a much better job drawing me in than a different way (e.g. 3D) to view the film --- but that's just me.

I can certainly anticipate a much brighter future. :b

Me too!
 

NorthStar

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Feb 8, 2011
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--- Hey, you changed your avatar! :cool:

* Everything you just said above, I agree. :b

>>> But I'm going to go one more:
The Audio equation from Blu-ray movies is lacking big time.
It just doesn't sound realistic with the moving pictures, plus too much sound prefabrication.
Very rare the Blu-ray movies with Sound quality that matches the Picture quality of some ...


For me, personally, the recording engineers in Movie productions, including the studios executives and even the directors, are subpar in most general (90%+ of all cases).

I won't mention all the crap out there (Picture & Sound & Story quality wise), but I will mention two great Blu-ray movie productions in Sound & Picture designs just as good examples of a job well done:

1. 'Tron Legacy'
2. 'The Dark Knight'

- I don't go by the reviews on technical and intelligent merits; I make my own judgements.
These two titles above; watch and listen to them again. ...Reference level, or very close.
Then play any other flicks, and I bet that 90%+ of them don't even come close to sound correct! ...From your own set of ears (and mine as well of course).

And this has nothing to do with your gear and room and speaker's positioning (some');
it has all to do with intelligent, talented movie recording engineers working closely with the right people from the right Sound team experts (film director included).
 
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NorthStar

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Feb 8, 2011
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435
Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
--- Movie Sound; that is where new sound barriers have to be broken!

Right now the people behind this Art, working in this business, are simply stuck in the old ways!
They are not exploring enough to make a substantial improvement.
It is a domain that is enormously lacking finesse and smartness.
Movie Sound recording/mixing engineers are taking their job for granted, and counting mainly on their DSP digital mixing consoles. They need to go more out there, in the real life, and get out of their enclosed and trapped studios.

Only very few do a decent job of matching the music soundtrack with the on screen moving images. ...And forget shaking camera work; it makes all of us sick! ...Try matching sound with that! ...You'll puke all over your popcorn!

The two movie examples that I gave in my above post are the proof that some people can do the job right. ...And it can be further improved as well ... But I'm happy with those two as they are right now (satisfy good enough). :b

See, we can talk all we want regarding Flat Frequency Response, REW, Acoustic Room Treatments, and all that Jazz; but if the original Sound material is not there to start with, all is truly futile really.
Methinks in all wisdom & honesty.
 

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