Totaldac Reference D1

dallasjustice · Oct 8, 2012

Glory said:
I have heard mixed thoughts on the BMC dac. IYO does it run with the W 202 and other big $$$ Dac's?

Ive only heard the 202 at shows. Ive always liked the big airy sound. I would say the BMC DAC is one of the best DACs at any price. It's very good, especially when paired with a BMC amp via the current injection connection. You should just look at the PSU to get an idea of the build quality. Having said that, the TotalDac is a different animal.

Glory · Oct 8, 2012

How much $$$ for this animal?

ths61 · Oct 18, 2012

DallasJustice,

Are those RealTraps and Diffusers ???

Thanks,
Tim

ths61 · Oct 18, 2012

Glory said:
How much $$$ for this animal?

Here is the Stereophile review: http://www.stereophile.com/content/soulution-710-power-amplifier

dallasjustice · Oct 18, 2012

Treatments

ths61 said:
DallasJustice,

Are those RealTraps and Diffusers ???

Thanks,
Tim

In the corners are 4 MSR Springtraps and on the frontwall is a pair of Primacoustics flexifusors. Ive been slowly improving my room acoustics over the last 6 months. I've since moved the flexifusors along with a pair of primacoustics razors to backwall. I've recently added 13 SCOPUS traps to further reduce length-related ringing at 35hz and also a couple of SBIRs off the frontwall and sidewalls. I will measure soon and post a before and after. I will prolly tryout RPG BAD Arc panels at POFR. I can replace the panel in my Primacoustics fulltraps at POFR with the RPG. It should work better than straight fiberglass.

LL21 · Oct 18, 2012

ths61 said:
Here is the Stereophile review: http://www.stereophile.com/content/soulution-710-power-amplifier

Thanks for posting...i think that was one of the best reviews i have read in many years. Fremer appeared to be calling a spade a spade...outlining without hesitation its tremendous merits...but also pointing out very plainly where some listeners would find notable fault. He even admitted he felt that way about the amps sometimes. But in general, it certainly not slamming a product, nor was it giving all pluses with a minor 'but' here or there that seemed to nit pick. It was quite a robust review in both positives and reservations in that regard.

Thanks again for posting.

dallasjustice · Oct 18, 2012

lloydelee21 said:
Thanks for posting...i think that was one of the best reviews i have read in many years. Fremer appeared to be calling a spade a spade...outlining without hesitation its tremendous merits...but also pointing out very plainly where some listeners would find notable fault. He even admitted he felt that way about the amps sometimes. But in general, it certainly not slamming a product, nor was it giving all pluses with a minor 'but' here or there that seemed to nit pick. It was quite a robust review in both positives and reservations in that regard.

Thanks again for posting.

Valin's review is much closer to what I am hearing than Fremer's review. Normally, I like Stereophile reviews better but I just don't understand what Mikey means by the Soulution being too fast or dry sounding. He tries to elaborate in the nhb-458 review but I don't get it. How can an amp be too fast and still be neutral (which he contends)? Thats like saying my wife is too hot or I make too much money.

The problem with all subjective reviews is that we don't have any useful context. When was the last time you actually saw a reviewer's acoustical measurements? I've seen Kal's but nobody else I can think of has posted their room measuents. There's always the lazy excuse that reviewers should have ordinary listening rooms because most prospective buyers have ordinary rooms.

opus111 · Oct 18, 2012

ths61 said:
Here is the Stereophile review: http://www.stereophile.com/content/soulution-710-power-amplifier

A brief technical point - this quote demonstrates a common error by non-technical guys:

The graphs in the 710's instruction manual illustrate its exceedingly low noise floor: –140dB from 20Hz to 20kHz (it's actually lower throughout most of the audioband)

He's reading from the FFT - the JA measurements show the noise floor (audio band) to be around -115dB. Its not possible to get the noise floor from an FFT directly, you have to know various things about the measurement in addition.

dallasjustice · Oct 19, 2012

opus111 said:
A brief technical point - this quote demonstrates a common error by non-technical guys:

The graphs in the 710's instruction manual illustrate its exceedingly low noise floor: –140dB from 20Hz to 20kHz (it's actually lower throughout most of the audioband)

He's reading from the FFT - the JA measurements show the noise floor (audio band) to be around -115dB. Its not possible to get the noise floor from an FFT directly, you have to know various things about the measurement in addition.

What additional information would be needed? Absent this missing information, would it not still be useful information when comparing noise floor FFTs between amps measured by JA, as long as they have always been measured in the same way?

hvbias · Oct 19, 2012

dallasjustice said:
Valin's review is much closer to what I am hearing than Fremer's review. Normally, I like Stereophile reviews better but I just don't understand what Mikey means by the Soulution being too fast or dry sounding. He tries to elaborate in the nhb-458 review but I don't get it. How can an amp be too fast and still be neutral (which he contends)? Thats like saying my wife is too hot or I make too much money.

The problem with all subjective reviews is that we don't have any useful context. When was the last time you actually saw a reviewer's acoustical measurements? I've seen Kal's but nobody else I can think of has posted their room measuents. There's always the lazy excuse that reviewers should have ordinary listening rooms because most prospective buyers have ordinary rooms.

My impression when I have heard amps that I felt were too "fast" was they either emphasize leading attack on instruments and possibly (though a very minor extent) truncate decay making unamplified instruments sound less natural.

opus111 · Oct 19, 2012

dallasjustice said:
What additional information would be needed?

Detail about the sample rate used, number of bins in each FFT and the windowing function employed. Also since the AP2 is capable of averaging, the number of averages taken.

Absent this missing information, would it not still be useful information when comparing noise floor FFTs between amps measured by JA, as long as they have always been measured in the same way?

Yes, as a relative comparison they'd be perfectly valid provided the measurement parameters were always the same.

ths61 · Oct 23, 2012

totaldac said:
even 0.1% is not enough. I use 0.01%, and stable in time.

Novice question, please excuse my ignorance. I am trying to understand the math of the circuit and the accuracy of the resisters as they pertain to bit-depth.

I made a spreadsheet to calculate the effective bit depth based on various R-2R definitions and it seems to correlate with the 6Moons review which states:

6Moons Review said:
While the Totaldac is a 24-bit network, 0.01% resistors cannot easily exceed 14-bit resolution (1/10.000 versus 1/65.536 for a 16-bit signal). The 24-bit foil ladder is not used at full capacity but guarantees 14-bit resolution for both most significant and less significant bits. The R-2R network is said to deliver superior THD+N and microdynamic performance than modern chip-based designs. Built-in dynamic limitation of large-scale signals is obvious but in reality today’s status of recordings and microphones here is the greater limiting factor. The never-ending race towards higher-resolution converters seems wasted in view of the top accuracy of the rest of the playback chain.

A true 24-bit resolution network used at full scale under most conditions would produce distortion levels well below the thermal self-noise of amplification circuits, never mind room noise. 24 bits then are primarily useful for maintaining good low-level signal resolution. In fact the noise floor shown lower could not be achieved by a simple 14-bit resolution chip.

If 0.01% is good for 14-bits of discrete voltage steps, what are the other 10 bits used for? Does the 24-bit ladder become a graceful 14-bit down converter or is there something else in play that utilizes the other 10 bits ???

Thanks in advance for your response(s).

totaldac · Oct 24, 2012

ths61,
In audio 24bit resolution is used to get the ability to resolve the large signals and also the very small signals, that's the dynamic capability. Such a R2R DAC has the ability to produce high level with 0.002% low distortion but also very low levels with a very good resolution. The FFT spectrum given in my web site shows the ability to resolve the very small signal with a very low noise which a 14bit DAC couldn't resolve, not even a 16bit nor a 20bit DAC, the noise floor is achievable only by the best 24bit DACs. For large signals (0dBFs) the LSB resolution is not necessary, and simply impossible to get by any DAC, calculate the distortion that would be admitted by a mathematically perfect 24bit DAC, it would be a distortion impossible to get and also completely useless. In audio people often forget that dynamic is the characteristic number one in audio.
For example take the ear or a good microphone or a good loudspeaker, their distortion is higher than most DACs and than most transistor amplifiers but their dynamic is extremely high. I tried to make a DAC that fits these accoustics characteristics.

Emre Üçöz · Oct 24, 2012

opus111 said:
this quote demonstrates a common error by non-technical guys:

Being a non-technical guy I can feel this extremely low noise floor with comparison. Prior of owning Soulution 710 I had Gryphon Antileon Signature Stereo and MBL 9008A monos and noise floor of Soulution gear is just amazing.

LL21 · Oct 24, 2012

Emre Üçöz said:
Being a non-technical guy I can feel this extremely low noise floor with comparison. Prior of owning Soulution 710 I had Gryphon Antileon Signature Stereo and MBL 9008A monos and noise floor of Soulution gear is just amazing.

I have not heard Soulution...but have read amazing things about these amps. I can say i have compared the Gryphon Antileon in my system with Gryphon Colosseum, and the newer Colosseum is much quieter during silences in music, and has far less grain than the older Antileon. Is the former related to lower noise floor? i would have thought so...but i am no techie.

opus111 · Oct 24, 2012

lloydelee21 said:
I have not heard Soulution...but have read amazing things about these amps. I can say i have compared the Gryphon Antileon in my system with Gryphon Colosseum, and the newer Colosseum is much quieter during silences in music, and has far less grain than the older Antileon. Is the former related to lower noise floor?

In my (fairly limited) experience subjective noise floor isn't strongly correlated with measured noise floor. One reason for this is that measurements made on a bench don't wire up the amp in a similar manner to how its used in the listening room. Technical equipment (Audio Precision for example) has a well isolated signal generator. Audio source equipment isn't so well isolated, resulting in common-mode currents through the input connections. Its one of my pet beefs with audio measurements made in magazines that they don't do any common-mode noise measurements.

LL21 · Oct 25, 2012

opus111 said:
In my (fairly limited experience) subjective noise floor isn't strongly correlated with measured noise floor. One reason for this is that measurements made on a bench don't wire up the amp in a similar manner to how its used in the listening room. Technical equipment (Audio Precision for example) has a well isolated signal generator. Audio source equipment isn't so well isolated, resulting in common-mode currents through the input connections. Its one of my pet beefs with audio measurements made in magazines that they don't do any common-mode noise measurements.

always learning from you Opus111...thanks!

opus111 · Oct 25, 2012

lloydelee21 said:
always learning from you Opus111...thanks!

Ah I forgot to mention another reason that the subjective differs from the objective. The noise floor is normally measured in the absence of any kind of signal - sometimes with a shorted input and with no load connected. Subjectively though we estimate the noise of an amp in between notes of the music, or perhaps when there's just recorded ambience playing, and into a loudspeaker load.

An objective measure could be made with something similar to a music signal, for example a multitone test stimulus might be used. Then the noise could be gathered up with distortion and presented as a single figure, representing all the contents of the originally empty FFT bins in the input signal. Not too hard to do with an AP but AFAIK, no magazine or online reviewer has tried it. It'd definitely be a step in the right direction - that of more closely correlating subjective experience with objective measurement.

jkeny · Oct 25, 2012

Cool, Opus, good idea! I wonder if any here own the necessary equipment & have the interest to do such a test. It would be an interesting experiment & might reveal some of the missing pieces in the puzzle.

LL21 · Oct 25, 2012

opus111 said:
Ah I forgot to mention another reason that the subjective differs from the objective. The noise floor is normally measured in the absence of any kind of signal - sometimes with a shorted input and with no load connected. Subjectively though we estimate the noise of an amp in between notes of the music, or perhaps when there's just recorded ambience playing, and into a loudspeaker load.

An objective measure could be made with something similar to a music signal, for example a multitone test stimulus might be used. Then the noise could be gathered up with distortion and presented as a single figure, representing all the contents of the originally empty FFT bins in the input signal. Not too hard to do with an AP but AFAIK, no magazine or online reviewer has tried it. It'd definitely be a step in the right direction - that of more closely correlating subjective experience with objective measurement.

jkeny said:
Cool, Opus, good idea! I wonder if any here own the necessary equipment & have the interest to do such a test. It would be an interesting experiment & might reveal some of the missing pieces in the puzzle.

+1

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