Opinions on the role of the preamp in a modern single source system

Phelonious Ponk · Jun 13, 2012

Here's the elephant in the room: Skipping over source switching for a moment, if the ideal preamp is a gain stage and a volume control that boosts the signal sufficiently and puts out the proper impedance, while adding nothing else, what's in the $140K pre above? Or even a $10k pre? There are at least a couple of companies who manage to put this functionality, with extremely (inaudibly?) low "adding" inside their DACs and sell them for a fraction of that kind of money.

What else is an esoteric preamp doing for a living?

Tim

ack · Jun 13, 2012

mullard88 said:
There is an audiophile in Japan who uses six spectral DMC 30 SL linestages in series. I have not heard the system but I imagined how palpable the soundstage air might sound, how present and live the musicians might be in the room and how dimensional and detailed the sound might be.

Having just voted 'Yes' in the poll, because the option I was looking for ('Yes, if it's transparent enough and can be A/B'd so') isn't really there, I find the quoted statement very hard to believe. Since I find the 30SL series colored compared to the SS series, I think all this person is achieving is more and more tube-like colorations of the un-good kind. Do you have a web link or something? Really curious...

AudioExplorations · Jun 13, 2012

ack said:
I think all this person is achieving is more and more tube-like colorations

Clearly the case, are the preamps able to extract and add information from when the original recording took place... umm, no.

audioarcher · Jun 13, 2012

"Who on earth, having spent big money on a preamp, will admit that besides input switching/volume functionality it plays no role sonically?"

Anyone that has tested both ways and wants to pull some money out of their system. I for one have tried this a few times with three different preamps. I was more than willing to sell my pre and save some money. In my system it always sounded better with a preamp. Was this a proper scientific test with enough data points? No, but for my uses in my system it is good enough for me.

I recommend people actually test this themselves with their own gear and decide for themselves. It's the only way to know for sure.

I'm sure there are some gear combos out there that will be optimal without a line stage but I am guessing they are few and far between.

For the people that have done extensive testing and did not prefer a line stage, what gear where you using?

Sean

Phelonious Ponk · Jun 13, 2012

There is an audiophile in Japan who uses six spectral DMC 30 SL linestages in series. I have not heard the system but I imagined how palpable the soundstage air might sound, how present and live the musicians might be in the room and how dimensional and detailed the sound might be.

Imagine is the appropriate term...

Tim

AudioExplorations · Jun 13, 2012

audioarcher said:
In my system it always sounded better with a preamp. Was this a proper scientific test with enough data points? No, but for my uses in my system it is good enough for me.

This could be because A) the preamp fixed an impedance mismatch, B) the preamp added a better volume control or C) you preferred the coloration the preamps added (which is fine, but if you need to add coloration to improve the sound it demonstrates there is something not right elsewhere in the component chain).

Given a capable source component is used, A and B should not be relevant.

amirm · Jun 13, 2012

A quick note on the term "impedance mismatch." We worry about differing impedances in radio frequencies where it can cause reflections. In audio band, such is not the worry. So there is no requirement to match anything. We we want there is maximum transfer of power which occurs when the source has much lower impedance than the input of the device receiving the signal. So for a pre-amp to do better than a DAC, it would need to have a lower output impedance.

JackD201 · Jun 13, 2012

AudioExplorations said:
This could be because A) the preamp fixed an impedance mismatch, B) the preamp added a better volume control or C) you preferred the coloration the preamps added (which is fine, but if you need to add coloration to improve the sound it demonstrates there is something not right elsewhere in the component chain).

Given a capable source component is used, A and B should not be relevant.

That or your source is adding enough coloration for your tastes to begin with.

AudioExplorations · Jun 13, 2012

amirm said:
A quick note on the term "impedance mismatch." We worry about differing impedances in radio frequencies where it can cause reflections. In audio band, such is not the worry. So there is no requirement to match anything. We we want there is maximum transfer of power which occurs when the source has much lower impedance than the input of the device receiving the signal. So for a pre-amp to do better than a DAC, it would need to have a lower output impedance.

Correct, the rule of thumb is that the power amp input impedance should be at least 10x greater than the preamp/source output impedance.

So, DAC's/CDP's with sufficiently low output impedances have no trouble driving the cabling and the input stage of amplifiers with sufficiently high input impedances.

AudioExplorations · Jun 13, 2012

JackD201 said:
That or your source is adding enough coloration for your tastes to begin with.

Yes different source components have different levels of coloration. I have owned wavelength tubed DACs with a lot of coloration (sugar-coating everything - tasty at first but get's boring quickly), and a number of Weiss DACs with (what I perceived to be) very little to no coloration (the taste determined by the musician/mastering engineer in the recording - different every time).

JackD201 · Jun 13, 2012

Sounds very reasonable to me.

audioarcher · Jun 13, 2012

AudioExplorations said:
This could be because A) the preamp fixed an impedance mismatch, B) the preamp added a better volume control or C) you preferred the coloration the preamps added (which is fine, but if you need to add coloration to improve the sound it demonstrates there is something not right elsewhere in the component chain).

Given a capable source component is used, A and B should not be relevant.

The only thing that is relevant to me is the final product. Not what is most logical. If I prefer colorations then so be it. I listen to my system with my ears not my logic.

AudioExplorations · Jun 13, 2012

audioarcher said:
The only thing that is relevant to me is the final product. Not what is most logical. If I prefer colorations then so be it. I listen to my system with my ears not my logic.

That's fantastic. I just like to dig in a bit and to understand the determinants of the sonic signature of a system (which helps define areas for future upgrades).

joeinid · Jun 13, 2012

I have tried with and without a preamp. In all cases, I prefer a preamp in the chain.

audioarcher · Jun 13, 2012

AudioExplorations said:
That's fantastic. I just like to dig in a bit and to understand the determinants of the sonic signature of a system (which helps define areas for future upgrades).

It's hard to understand all the variables. Especially with all the choices out there. It would be nice to cut down on trial and error with logic but it does not always work that way. The fact that everyones taste are different makes it even more difficult. The more stuff you try the more you can narrow in on whats best for you.

Sean

ack · Jun 13, 2012

AudioExplorations said:
Clearly the case, are the preamps able to extract and add information from when the original recording took place... umm, no.

Right. It seems people confuse the inability of a source component to drive some amps (which necessitates a good preamp) with a preamp being able to extract more from a recording. This is one of those obvious SHOW ME scenarios.

AudioExplorations · Jun 13, 2012

Spot on.

Phelonious Ponk · Jun 13, 2012

ack said:
Right. It seems people confuse the inability of a source component to drive some amps (which necessitates a good preamp) with a preamp being able to extract more of a recording. This is one of those obvious SHOW ME scenarios.

Could someone with more technical expertise than myself explain what would be required of the source component and the amp to make an appropriate match and rule out this potential problem? Something similar to the way Amir just cleared up impedance matching issues would be perfect, if it's that simple.

Tim

andromedaaudio · Jun 13, 2012

Nice this one has vol control i ll try it later without the pre and post my expiriences

_DSC0337 by andromeda61, on Flickr

AudioExplorations · Jun 13, 2012

andromedaaudio said:
Nice this one has vol control i ll try it later without the pre and post my expiriences

_DSC0337 by andromeda61, on Flickr

Wow! That is one gorgeous looking amplifier! And the glass backing makes it look like there are 2X the number of tubes

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Opinions on the role of the preamp in a modern single source system

Is a preamp essential sonically?

Yes (never really tried without a preamp)

Yes (I have done extensive testing without preamp)

No (never really tried with a preamp)

No (I have done extensive testing with preamp)

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