Beutiful but flawed

Gregadd · Jun 5, 2012

Beautiful but flawed

I thought i would start this thread to acknowledge some great products that give us a glimpse of reality but had flaws.

I'll start with two products- AR SP-9and the CJ PV5. The pv5 was affordable and relaible. My fiirst true high end preanp. The midrange was glorious. It had a cult following. Alas it was euphohniclly colored. Did not have enough gain for MC carts and lacked deep bass. The euphonic colrations were useful to the early CLS 1. It tended to be a bit lean.
The ARC SP9 had everything you expected from an ARC preanp. iAlnost as if it was designed to solve the problems of the PV5. I recall how dynanic it was. It did not "cut corners" like the CJ-PV5. Alas it was a wolf in sheeps clothing. It had only one tube in the phono stage and was relly a SS preamp.

Both sold like hotcakes and brought top dollar on the used market.

Please tell us about your flawed beauty.

JackD201 · Jun 5, 2012

B&W 302 - budget speaker with hardly any bass to speak of and couldn't play very loud at all. Used within their limits however they sounded very natural.

MG 1.6QR - wonderful sound within their limits and at a relative bargain at that. Again unfortunately their limits were much lower than mine. They had a dynamic ceiling at which point the weak frames seemed to keep the panels from reaching their potential. This was confirmed when I heard Mullard88's 1.6QRs reframed with much sturdier stuff.

Von Schweikert VR-4jr - not as refined or detailed as its competitors at the time like the DALI Helicon 400 and some others but had tight, deep bass way above it's price class. A real party pleaser.

Revel F30 - see through clarity in the mids, a little hot on top. Sloppy bass was a flaw that couldn't be addressed up the chain.

Duevel Planets - doesn't pass muster in terms of sound quality against similarly priced or lower priced 2-way monitors but have a heck of a WAF factor.

Koetsu cartridges - they are what they are and err on the pretty side.

I like my electronics as neutral in balance and color as I can get them so If you noticed, my list is made up of transducers.

Bill Hart · Jun 5, 2012

Quad ESL- the most beautiful and bittersweet illustration of this, untrammeled glimpses of musical reality, with significant limitations in bandwidth, dynamics and listener location. But still my all time favorite midrange reproducer and, with limitations I could gladly live with again (if I ever get my old pair restored).

microstrip · Jun 5, 2012

Syrinx PU3 tonearm. The best midrange I have ever listened in any tonearm at its time. But could not play the last one third of any LP without very severe mistracking!

NorthStar · Jun 5, 2012

Thread's title ...

-----'Beautiful' with an "a" Greg.

* It's from the French 'beau' or 'belle', 'jolie' in feminine. ...Angelina Jolie.

Bill Hart · Jun 5, 2012

It matches the subject matter- beautiful, but flawed.

NorthStar · Jun 5, 2012

Hey right, I did not see it that way; beutifully said! :b

Gregadd · Jun 6, 2012

I had it coming

FrantzM · Jun 6, 2012

Gregadd said:
I had it coming

Hi

Back to the subject. Two ESl products come to mind.
MArtin Logan CLS ... A very limited transducer , it did however shed a new light on the amount of resoluton one can get from the upper midrange and unto the high treble... tend to sound "bleachy" in more than one occasion unles tamed by roled-off tube component wich robbed it from much of its see'through ... no speaker-playing kind of transparency... No bass to speak off.. Weak mid-bass but when you found a way or a system that would match it ... Spectacular ... Ultimately maddening...

Quad ESL-63 ... Remain to this date one of the most accurate speaker in the mid-range with limited SPL source material .. I did find it rolled off in the Treble and again a weak mid-bass and not low bass output to speak off .. moreover extremely limited in dynamic range .. it won't play loud or startle you with a burst of sonic energy (even when that would be exactly the music requires) ... But with music which would matchits capabilities very difficult to surpass ... I am not sure they have still a transducer more accurate on woman voice reproduction ...

It is my opinion that both these speakers are surpassed in almost all aspects by several current designs ... The Quad remains however unique in the women voice department from what I have heard recently .. it is matched and surpassed in the overall midrange (and elsewhere) by several speakers today.. I will name a few which I believe match or surpass its midrange overall... Wilson X-2 (never cared about Wilson midrange until the X-2stunned me) .. Magico Q1 (and likely the Q3, Q5 and Q7 wich I haven't yet, heard).. Rockport Mira and Aquilla ( I would assume likely the Avior, Arrakis and Altair) . .. The Magnepan 1.7 ( a surprise to me, and I would again assume the 3.7 and 20.7) . VS Vr 4 and 5 ... Dynaudio Evidence Masters and Temtation (speakers almost never mentioned here on the WBF but World-beaters they still are) ...Not an exhaustive list by the way there may be others

Gregadd · Jun 7, 2012

Back to the subject. Two ESl products come to mind.

MArtin Logan CLS ... A very limited transducer , it did however shed a new light on the amount of resoluton one can get from the upper midrange and unto the high treble... tend to sound "bleachy" in more than one occasion unles tamed by roled-off tube component wich robbed it from much of its see'through ... no speaker-playing kind of transparency... No bass to speak off.. Weak mid-bass but when you found a way or a system that would match it ... Spectacular ... Ultimately maddening...

Criticism of The CLS never bothered me and still does not. Not only are the CLS s'shrotcomings but it exposes everything upstream. To papraphase Harry Pearson The CLS was maddening and I often felt it was mocking me. A dealer who encouraged me to abandon it in favor of a speaker he sold, said, so you have a few records that are magic and everytihng else was crap. Ultimately the transparency forced others to realize that thier product was also flawed. I beleive the high end was better because of it. It is a speaker that is easy make sound bad. IMO Gayle Sanders made the wrong move. He sought to make it more "agreeable" with accompanying products and source materials. I wish he had stayed the course and waited for everyone else to catch up. He became a very successful manufacturer but CLS never got the atyttention it deserved. Too bad.

c1ferrari · Jun 7, 2012

Hill Plasmatronics Loudspeaker

Anyone for a full-range plasma transducer

Gregadd · Jun 7, 2012

Alomst every audio prouct is flawed. I think right up there is the WIlsion WATT/Puppy series. Indeed if not matched with the right products not onkly is it flawwed but lacks its magic.

NorthStar · Jun 7, 2012

...And matched with the right people too. :b

mep · Jun 7, 2012

Gregadd said:
I thought i would start this thread to acknowledge some great products that give us a glimpse of reality but had flaws.

I'll start with two products- AR SP-9and the CJ PV5. The pv5 was affordable and relaible. My fiirst true high end preanp. The midrange was glorious. It had a cult following. Alas it was euphohniclly colored. Did not have enough gain for MC carts and lacked deep bass. The euphonic colrations were useful to the early CLS 1. It tended to be a bit lean.
The ARC SP9 had everything you expected from an ARC preanp. iAlnost as if it was designed to solve the problems of the PV5. I recall how dynanic it was. It did not "cut corners" like the CJ-PV5. Alas it was a wolf in sheeps clothing. It had only one tube in the phono stage and was relly a SS preamp.

Both sold like hotcakes and brought top dollar on the used market.

Please tell us about your flawed beauty.

You must be confusing the ARC SP-9 with the ARC SP-14. The ARC SP-14 only has one tube in the phono stage and has a SS line stage. The SP-9 had one tube in the phono stage and one tube in the line stage.

Gregadd · Jun 8, 2012

Despite owning the Sp9 and Sp-9 MkII and ,i made that mistake before. Thinks for correcting me. It still hd a SS quality.

Gregadd · Jun 11, 2012

Two of the most beautiful but flawed: CD and LP.

microstrip · Jun 11, 2012

Gregadd said:
Despite owning the Sp9 and Sp-9 MkII and ,i made that mistake before. Thinks for correcting me. It still hd a SS quality.

Greg,
Bad luck. The best of the series was the SP9 mk3. I have no experience with the mk2, but there was a very large difference between the mk1 and mk3 - ARC must have learned a lot about hybrids during this time interval.
As you refer to old cj's, my preferred of that time was the great premier 9A.

Gregadd · Jul 25, 2012

I think we can add CDs and CD players to this list. The public was ready for something new. If only CD had to earn the throne rather than having it awarded. It's faults and adavntages are well documented if not universaly agreed upon. Although the CD will die eventually along with most "physical media", digital will live on and hopefullyrealize what appears to be it's unlimited potential. Ironically for that to happen its proponents will have to get out of the way.

treitz3 · Jul 25, 2012

Gregadd said:
Two of the most beautiful but flawed: CD and LP.

Hello, Gregadd. I do believe that you nailed that one. Bravo! The Quad ESL for reasons aforementioned would definitely qualify as well. Beautiful but flawed.

Tom

puroagave · Jul 27, 2012

Gregadd said:
I thought i would start this thread to acknowledge some great products that give us a glimpse of reality but had flaws.

I'll start with two products- AR SP-9and the CJ PV5. The pv5 was affordable and relaible. My fiirst true high end preanp. The midrange was glorious. It had a cult following. Alas it was euphohniclly colored. Did not have enough gain for MC carts and lacked deep bass. The euphonic colrations were useful to the early CLS 1. It tended to be a bit lean.
The ARC SP9 had everything you expected from an ARC preanp. iAlnost as if it was designed to solve the problems of the PV5. I recall how dynanic it was. It did not "cut corners" like the CJ-PV5. Alas it was a wolf in sheeps clothing. It had only one tube in the phono stage and was relly a SS preamp.

Both sold like hotcakes and brought top dollar on the used market.

Please tell us about your flawed beauty.

Greg, no animus is intended but when the mk i ARC Sp-9 debuted not a single ARC dealer at the time preferred it over the Sp-8 it replaced. it retained neither the strengths of tube or FETs. neal sinclair, the founder of theta digital who also owed absolute audio in so. cal, went to great lengths to talk me out of a 9. whats an sp-9 worth today vs the sp-8?

it was supposed to be a poormans sp-11 which HP gushed over.

cj preamps up to the pv-8 were noisy, 100% of my listening back then was vinyl and their phonostages were unbearable with even a medium output MC. i had a pv-9 and it was marginal with a mc cartridge of 1.8 mv. yes, the mids were glorious but at what price.

Beutiful but flawed

WBF Founding Member

WBF Founding Member

Well-Known Member

VIP/Donor

Member

Well-Known Member

Member

WBF Founding Member

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member

WBF Founding Member

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member

WBF Founding Member

Member

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member

WBF Founding Member

WBF Founding Member

VIP/Donor

WBF Founding Member

Super Moderator

Member Sponsor

Similar threads