Three versions of Oppo players compared

FrantzM

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Hi Steve,

I can't say why for sure, but I believe that most businesses that modify equipment do not post before and after measurements.

Rich

Isn't that somewhat suspect? So how did they come up wit the mod ? Just curious ...
 

naturephoto1

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Isn't that somewhat suspect? So how did they come up wit the mod ? Just curious ...

Hi Frantz,

This is not particular to the Upgrade Company. With that same reasoning all companies that modify equipment could be looked at as suspect. To the best of my knowledge though, not only are listening tests conducted but so are measurements. Some to the determination of the mods is based upon the circuitry itself, a knowledge the affects of making such changes, as well a s a bit of experimentation.

Rich
 

Steve Williams

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Rich

In all candor IMO it is a blind leap of faith to be shelling out such big bucks (more than 3X the price of the machine itself) for something that you have no idea whether this is the "real deal" or just another case of the Emperor's new clothes

Just my $0.02
 

FrantzM

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Rich

More of a general statement, not addressed directly toward the Upgrade Company. A modification as to act upon the circuitry thus some measurable parameters would change , I presume.
 

naturephoto1

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Rich

In all candor IMO it is a blind leap of faith to be shelling out such big bucks (more than 3X the price of the machine itself) for something that you have no idea whether this is the "real deal" or just another case of the Emperor's new clothes

Just my $0.02

Hi Steve,

No question that there are some real concerns on the part of the buyer. But, there are also many other outfits that also offer modifications on the Oppo 83SE and the the NuForce 83SE. I am not trying to defend anyone on this. On the part of the Upgrade Company there is a 7 day money back return policy if you are not happy with the purchase that most or to my knowledge no other outfit offers.

Rich
 

Steve Williams

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Well to the best of my knowledge Modright allows for a demo unit to be used prior to buying your own.

Rich in what way(s) would you say that differences were noted in your modded TUC Oppo vs what you heard before the mod and did you verify this with measuremembnts or did you just listen and find it better than what you sent for mod?

Also do you really feel that paying 3X the amount of the original Oppo to have it modded for something you don't even know what is being done is somewhat a blind leap of faith
 

naturephoto1

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Well to the best of my knowledge Modright allows for a demo unit to be used prior to buying your own.

Rich in what way(s) would you say that differences were noted in your modded TUC Oppo vs what you heard before the mod and did you verify this with measuremembnts or did you just listen and find it better than what you sent for mod?

Also do you really feel that paying 3X the amount of the original Oppo to have it modded for something you don't even know what is being done is somewhat a blind leap of faith

Hi Steve,

My case was very different from the norm. I already had an upgraded Denon 5910 and an upgraded Lavry DA10 and was at the Upgrade Company to listen. I had the Denon and the Lary with me. Also on hand was an upgrded 2 box EMM Labs Signature player. We tried to keep everything adjusted equally for listening comparisons. To my ears, I preferred the performance of the ugpraded Oppo 83SE over my Denon with and withot the Lavry for CD and better than the Denon for SACD. I also liked the upgraded Oppo 83 SE with the Lavry even more. Also to my ears I thought that the upgraded Oppo SE was about equal to the upgraded 2 box EMM Labs cor CD and was superior tp the EMM Labs for SACD. Additionally, with the upgraded Lavry, the upgraded Oppo 83 SE may have sounded better to my ears than the upgraded 2 box EMM Labs.

Rich
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Rich

Unless you did a side by side test either sighted or DBT and were able to make comparisons by listening and measurements IMHO all you are doing is speculating

I am also told that once modded TUC places a seal on the equipment housing which, if broken, voids the warranty. IMO this goes to more than caveat emptor

Rich is it true that the principal of TUC is not an EE and has had no formal training in this field. If so and by virtue of placing a seal on the box which voids the warranty, I must say, this leaves me somewhat suspicious.
 

FrantzM

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naturephoto1

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Hi Ken,

I really did not want to get into this again. Initially in order to better get a handle on how things sounded things were switched sighted. After we got a better understanding of what we heard between the units the testing was done both sited and blind. There were no double blind tests. The equipment volumes were adjusted as closely as we could and we used the same ICs and power cords for the Denon, Lavry, and EMM Labs. The same power cords were used for the Oppo 83SE. Since the Oppo only has RCA outputs we used the RCA (same wire but RCA rather than Balanced connectors) equivalent ICs as the Balanced cables used for the Denon, Lavry, and EMM Labs. As mentioned though volume was adjusted as closely as possible.

Rich
 
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naturephoto1

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what were the results of your sighted and blind tests?

Hi Steve,

As I have mentioned we did hear differences and in almost every blind test we could recognize which was which. Also, we used either identical CDs or special identical Writable CDs, and SACDs for our comparisons. Without question the SACD performance of the upgraded Oppo 83SE was superior to either the upgraded Denon 5910 or the upgraded EMM Labs 2 box Signature series player. Without question we could tell every time which was playing SACD. The poorest performer was the upgraded EMM Labs. It had the most grain and just didn't sound nearly as much like the voices and instruments that we were listening to. The Denon was better than the EMM Labs with a smoother and more life like performance. The real surprise though was the upgraded Oppo 83SE. It sound much better than either of the far more expensive pieces of equipment. The sound was much much more life like, smoother, better imaging, soundstage, with better highs, midrange and bass.

As to the performance with the CDs we could almost always recognize which was which. The performance of the much less expensive upgraded Oppo 83SE was again a huge surprise. It just again was more life like, with better imaging, and soundstage than the Denon with or without the Lavry DAC in the mix. At the time I was extremely disappointed by this, but decided right then and threre to get the upgraded Oppo 83SE which also bested the performance of my upgraded Denon 3800 BDCI Blu-ray player. So the Oppo would replace both of these machines. When we played the Oppo through the upgraded Lavry DA10 DAC the performance of the Oppo 83SE was still better with better bass and more body to the music than the naked Oppo 83SE.

The upgraded Denon 5910 sounded really quite good by itself for CD and was even better with the Lavry DA10 DAC. It had excellent bass, imaging, soundstage that was further improved by the Lavry. The Denon alone did not sound as good as the upgraded EMM Labs Signature 2 box unit and we could almost always tell one from the other with or without the Lavry with the Denon. The upgraded EMM Labs unit was a better performer overall than the Denon for the life like sound, imaging, soundstage etc. The soundstage was bigger with the EMM Labs and the Denon sounded a little smaller. But, the upgraded EMM Labs 2 box system had a bit of grain that was absent in the Denon. The difference between the upgraded EMM Labs and the upgraded Denon 5910 and the upgraded Lavry DA10 DAC was less than the Denon alone. With the upgraded Lavry DA10 the Denon 5910 was better focused, with better Bass, a bigger soundstage, etc.

Again the biggest surprise was the performance of the upgraded Oppo 83SE. When compared to the performance of the 2 Box EMM Labs Signature system it was more difficult to distinguish one from the other. It was even more of a challenge when the upgraded Lavry DA10 DAC was used with the upgraded Oppo 83SE. At times we thought that the EMM Labs system sounded better, other times we thought that the upgraded Oppo 83SE sounded better particularly with the upgraded Lavry DA10 DAC. But, this is a big but, we could generally recognize the little bit of grain that we heard with the upgraded EMM Labs 2 box system. As the weekend continued and the equipment continued to burn in we would switch our opinion as to which sounded better.

As a whole though the upgraded Oppo 83SE sounded so good that we could not believe the performance of such an inexpensive machine compared to such an expensive system with the EMM Lavbs. At the time we did not think that the price difference was warranted. Additionally, the Oppo would play Blu-ray discs. The Oppo demonstrated great Bass attack, imaging, soundstage, highs, mids, and life like sound.

Since that time David Schulte has discovered new ways to further improved the performance of the units. My upgraded NuForce Oppo 83SE has furhter been upgraded and sounds even better since I received mine. Additionally, I now have a CD transport that I use with the upgraded Lavry DA10 DAC that performs even better than the upgraded NuForce Oppo 83SE for Redbook CD playback.

Also, as an aside, we have been swapping out Power Cords feeding the players and the Lavry DAC and have found which we prefer because they seem to really alter the sound of the units.

Rich
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Rich

I know you said "sounded better". I must ask in what way only because my mantra with any new piece of gear after auditioning has always been "did it sound better or did it merely sound different. If it sounded better, in what way???"

I am also interested that you could distinguish the Oppo in 100% of testing vs others
 

naturephoto1

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Rich

I know you said "sounded better". I must ask in what way only because my mantra with any new piece of gear after auditioning has always been "did it sound better or did it merely sound different. If it sounded better, in what way???"

I am also interested that you could distinguish the Oppo in 100% of testing vs others

Hi Steve,

As I have mentioned with SACD we could very close to 100% identify one from the other. In the case of the Oppo for SACD we always preferred the more life like, smoother sounds which also rendered the best imaging, soundstage, and probably Bass. The EMM Labs invariably sounded the worst on the same SACD. There was always more grain and the sound was always more mechanical sounding and just didn't sound as much like music.

As to CD I would say that though some of the reaction was due to a "new" sound, the Oppo had better more precise imaging,bigger soundstage, was more focused, and had more life like sound than the Denon 5910 with or without the Lavry DA10 DAC. We could almost always recognize the Oppo from the Denon due to those observations and the fact that the Denon provided a smaller soundstage.

In the case of the Denon versus the 2 box EMM Labs system, we could again most of the time recognize one from the other. Again, here we preferred the sound of the EMM Labs because the sound was more life like, it imaged better with more air around voices and instruments, the soundstage was larger, etc. than the Denon. As I have mentioned though the differences were less when the Lavry DA10 DAC was used with the Denon. However, we liked the smoother sound of the Denon and were not as happy with the grain of the sound of the EMM Labs. Overall, though, the EMM Labs was prefered for the reasons mentioned.

As to redbook CD for the upgraded Oppo 63SE compared to the 2 box upgraded EMM Labs system, we had much more difficulty in recognizing one from the other and we could not as frequently as with the other comparisons. Also, as mentioned the differences became even smaller when the Lavry DAC was used with the upgraded Oppo 83SE. Again though, like the Denon, the Oppo seemed to lack the grain that we could often hear with the EMM Labs. So, in those instances the upgraded Oppo 83SE sounded smoother. Things became much more confusing as I have mentioned during the weekend as the parts of both the upgraded Oppo 83SE and those of the upgraded EMM Labs system continued to burn in. The comparison of the upgraded Oppo 83SE and the upgraded EMM Labs units were very very close in terms of imaging, soundstage, life like sound, depth, openeness, air, etc. However, as I recall, the upgraded Oppo 83SE may have had a touch more bass than the EMM Labs.

Rich
 
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The Smokester

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...I am also told that once modded TUC places a seal on the equipment housing which, if broken, voids the warranty. IMO this goes to more than caveat emptor...

I know nothing of this company. I agree with your skepticism. However, there is a reasonable alternative hypothesis. They may be trying to protect intellectual property.

The only way to know for sure is measurement and/or contolled listening. Or, break the seal to see if there are meaningful changes made.
 

MC352

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So, who is off to buy an Oppo SE?
It has been on my radar screen for a while.
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
I know nothing of this company. I agree with your skepticism. However, there is a reasonable alternative hypothesis. They may be trying to protect intellectual property.

I agree

The only way to know for sure is measurement and/or contolled listening. Or, break the seal to see if there are meaningful changes made.

It seems however that no one has taken measurements and the only controlled listeniing IMO was less than controlled. Looking inside is certainly an option but no one has done this
 

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