Periphery Outer Ring Clamps

PeterA

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The plus that isn't talked about much……go to town with huge discounts on warped but otherwise NM records. That's what I did! :D

Funny you should write this. Just two weeks ago I bought a notoriously difficult to track solo piano LP, even without a warp. It had been listed for $45. Then the seller refunded my payment and explained he found a severe edge warp that his own turntable/arm/cart. could not track so he did not want to sell it and risk the negative feedback. I really wanted the LP, which was in otherwise NM condition, so he offered to sell it to me for $13.50 including shipping. I took a chance and I'm glad I did. My table, with center clamp but no ring clamp, tracks it fine with no issues as long as the stylus gets in the lead in grove before the music starts. I saved a bunch of money on an otherwise great LP. The center clamp certainly helps and some arm/cartridge combinations do better than others.
 

JackD201

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Don't you love it when that happens Peter? :D
 

PeterA

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I use the centre weight and a ring clamp and it does make it sound better. I use a clear audio clamp and ring on a clear audio table. The better the record bonds with the table 9 times out 10 you get better sound if not 10 out of 10. I do not play a record without the ring clamp unless it is a smaller the 12 inch record. I am no expert and that is just IMO.

I agree completely with the bold sentence, but then there are members here who have smooth copper (or other metal) platters and don't use any clamps, weights or rings. And they prefer that sound. I suppose there is enough of a bond between the lp and the smooth metal platter that the record does not slip with groove friction.
 

rockitman

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I agree completely with the bold sentence, but then there are members here who have smooth copper (or other metal) platters and don't use any clamps, weights or rings. And they prefer that sound. I suppose there is enough of a bond between the lp and the smooth metal platter that the record does not slip with groove friction.

Bottom line. When you have edge warp, you can expect inconsistent VTA, VTF for the first 2-3" in, which will affect sound reproduction. The flatter the record the better. That whole concept of Dre's anal microscopy SRA is usless if the record is not flat, let alone the same thickness as originally calibrated record after record.
 

JackD201

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I agree completely with the bold sentence, but then there are members here who have smooth copper (or other metal) platters and don't use any clamps, weights or rings. And they prefer that sound. I suppose there is enough of a bond between the lp and the smooth metal platter that the record does not slip with groove friction.

I was one of those guys. Still great sound. No doubt about that. I just like the more solidly coupled thang better.
 

PeterA

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Bottom line. When you have edge warp, you can expect inconsistent VTA, VTF for the first 2-3" in, which will affect sound reproduction. The flatter the record the better. That whole concept of Dre's anal microscopy SRA is usless if the record is not flat, let alone the same thickness as originally calibrated record after record.

Yes, no doubt about that. Does Dre advocate adjusting SRA for each LP? Not many people do that. I do and it is clearly audible.
 

Frank750

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Yes, no doubt about that. Does Dre advocate adjusting SRA for each LP? Not many people do that. I do and it is clearly audible.

It would drive me crazy! How much adjusting are you doing?
 

PeterA

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It would drive me crazy! How much adjusting are you doing?

Hello Frank. You asked me a very similar question before and I wrote a fairly lengthy response in my system thread. Post #38:

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?12853-Sublime-Sound/page4

Basically, it takes me about 20-30 seconds to raise and lower my VTA on the SME V-12. Each LP has one of five settings ranging in 0.5mm increments between 16mm-18mm. (ie. 16, 16.5, 17, 17.5, 18mm) I measure from the top of the arm board to the bottom of the arm rest structure using the mm scale on the sides of the SME paper protractor. I would like to find a set of metal gauges at these thicknesses to set the arm quicker and more precisely.

These ideal VTA settings, and resulting SRAs, are specific for my two cartridges and for each LP. I tend to listen to a few LPs, at say 17mm, and then move the VTA up or down a bit to then play an LP at 16.5 or 18mm. It is not a big deal. My friends watch me do it and it makes a clear audible difference. I find it well worth it, but others certainly do not. Some people have VTA on the fly arms and they do it also for different thickness LPs, but I have found that it does not depend on the LP thickness but rather on the original cutting head SRA which I am trying to match by ear.

Sorry for the side track (pun). Back to the original topic of periphery rings and record warps. Playing a warped record does effect VTA/SRA and VTF as the arm is forced to track the warp. Most of my LPs are flat and the few that are not are dealt with fairly effectively by the SME screw down clamp and spindle washer system which raises the record at the center and then flattens it against the soft, grooved platter as the clamp is tightened. There is almost no need to use a periphery ring on the SME tables.
 

Frank750

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Hello Frank. You asked me a very similar question before and I wrote a fairly lengthy response in my system thread. Post #38:

Sorry Peter, I turned 60 last month and I started forgetting things.
 

Chuck Lee

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Feb 5, 2015
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I have an SME 10 with the V arm.
I have never tried the periphery rings that are available.
My friend has a TNT ring that he no longer uses on his Linn LP12.
I think the rings would be better suited to non sprung tables.

I have encountered a few warped records that will make the V arm skip,and I always use the clamp and washer.
 

Brf

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Sep 21, 2012
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Is it true that the Tri-Planar tonearm cannot be used with a periphery ring due a clearance issue?
 

rockitman

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Has anyone ever observed the effect of placing a periphery ring on a platter while testing for speed consistency using a Timeline strobe?

Since there is added rotational mass, the speed fluctuation should improve. I can't imagine vinyl life w/o a ring unless all of your records are flat and devoid of edge warp. The only solution that is better is vacuum hold down.
 

PeterA

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Since there is added rotational mass, the speed fluctuation should improve. I can't imagine vinyl life w/o a ring unless all of your records are flat and devoid of edge warp. The only solution that is better is vacuum hold down.

Wave Kinetics, Dobbins Beat, Technics SP10s, Basis, SME, Brinkman, TW Akustic, to name a few, do not design tables with periphery rings. And a few vinyl aficionados actually prefer smooth metal platter surfaces with no clamp, no rings or any mechanical means to flatten LPs. (I often wonder if the LP slips due to stylus drag, but that is for another thread).

I once tried to buy an LP on Ebay and the seller contacted me to cancel the sale because he noticed a severe edge warp that his own tonearm would not track. I really wanted to buy this record, so I offered to buy it without a return policy at a dramatically reduced price. Once it arrived, I did notice a severe warp. My table tracked it without incident and without the need for a periphery ring.

I agree that rotational mass increases with the addition of a periphery ring, but it does not necessarily follow that the speed accuracy and/or consistency improves or even remains the same. I think this would depend on the motor's torque, the drive type, and perhaps other factors. If the motor's torque can not handle the added mass, the platter should slow down and the speed may need to be adjusted.

Some tables don't offer speed adjustment, hence my question of whether or not anyone has observed the effect of adding a periphery ring with a speed checking device like the Timeline or even the KAB strobe. I have tested a turntable with a periphery ring with my Timeline, and it was very slow. The owner claimed that the use of the Timeline is a flawed testing method. We did not try to increase the speed to see the effect on platter speed with and without the ring. He assured me the speed was correct, so we moved on to listening to music.
 

rockitman

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Regarding rings, I did not want the CA outer ring. It has a cumbersome centering tool. I use the TTW's version. If there is significant edge warp, spindle pucks won't make the record flat. Playing a record with warp means inconsistent VTA and VTF every Revolution....not optimal for best sound.
 

ack

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Some tables don't offer speed adjustment, hence my question of whether or not anyone has observed the effect of adding a periphery ring with a speed checking device like the Timeline or even the KAB strobe. I have tested a turntable with a periphery ring with my Timeline, and it was very slow. The owner claimed that the use of the Timeline is a flawed testing method. We did not try to increase the speed to see the effect on platter speed with and without the ring. He assured me the speed was correct, so we moved on to listening to music.

The speed difference with and without the ring is obvious for me with the KAB, and so is with or without the stylus in the groove. Thus, I set speed with both on and in.
 

pcosta

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Jul 25, 2010
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I recently had a Clearaudio Outer Limit ring with centering spider. I found it did effectively flatten warps but it was a real PITA. The tool they supplied is really difficult to use. I sold it. The TTW version looks like it is much easier to use, which would mean used more often
 

Mosin

[Industry Expert]
Mar 11, 2012
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Great post. There's a lot here to discuss.


Wave Kinetics, Dobbins Beat, Technics SP10s, Basis, SME, Brinkman, TW Akustic, to name a few, do not design tables with periphery rings. And a few vinyl aficionados actually prefer smooth metal platter surfaces with no clamp, no rings or any mechanical means to flatten LPs. (I often wonder if the LP slips due to stylus drag, but that is for another thread).

Based on what I have seen with my turntable, I don't believe the record slips due to stylus drag, but it does slip a bit at start up, if you change records on-the-fly. I don't know if there is any record damage due to metal platters because I chose an acetal surface. I did that because I like how it mates with the record from a resonance standpoint, and because it is a "vinyl friendly" surface that won't scratch records. The downside is that it can pick up abrasions easier than metal. I have a workaround for OCD guys, but I don't worry about it for my personal use. Anyway, a solid surface is less lossy than the alternatives, in my opinion.

I once tried to buy an LP on Ebay and the seller contacted me to cancel the sale because he noticed a severe edge warp that his own tonearm would not track. I really wanted to buy this record, so I offered to buy it without a return policy at a dramatically reduced price. Once it arrived, I did notice a severe warp. My table tracked it without incident and without the need for a periphery ring.

A good tonearm with a properly aligned cartridge struts its stuff on marginal records. Fortunately, those who pay thousands for turntables generally insist on flat records. I have found a cheap puck to be useful at times, though.

I agree that rotational mass increases with the addition of a periphery ring, but it does not necessarily follow that the speed accuracy and/or consistency improves or even remains the same. I think this would depend on the motor's torque, the drive type, and perhaps other factors. If the motor's torque can not handle the added mass, the platter should slow down and the speed may need to be adjusted.

A periphery ring shouldn't affect anything with a turntable that was built employing a "brute force" principle. I don't know any modern turntables built that way, though. The EMT927, Fairchild Studio 750, and the old Russco models come to mind as ones that do. Of the modern turntables, the better designed ones use managed torque implementations that factor in inertia as precisely as possible. They are balancing acts that are hampered by anything that upsets the proverbial apple cart, and periphery rings certainly do that.

Some tables don't offer speed adjustment, hence my question of whether or not anyone has observed the effect of adding a periphery ring with a speed checking device like the Timeline or even the KAB strobe. I have tested a turntable with a periphery ring with my Timeline, and it was very slow. The owner claimed that the use of the Timeline is a flawed testing method. We did not try to increase the speed to see the effect on platter speed with and without the ring. He assured me the speed was correct, so we moved on to listening to music.

If that owner was saying the Timeline was flawed as an excuse for his table running slow with a ring, he is deluding himself. Of course, it was slow. The Timeline is extremely accurate for checking average speed. Where it and strobes fall down is that none of them can tell what is going on during a specific RPM because they only measure the whole RPM. If you have a turntable that constantly hunts and corrects due to a poorly designed speed control, none of them will tell you. The micro dynamics of music will, however. They won't tell you if the platter slows down or speeds up when it encounters transients in the grooves, either. Your ears will, though. You may be lulled into thinking the music is great, but an A-B with a good turntable will quickly change your mind.

The Timeline is great for setup. That's where it excels. I use a KAB strobe, and follow up with a Timeline. Then, I lock the speed at the controller. I have found that method the best way to get the speed dead on.

That's my opinion...for whatever it's worth.
 
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