Synergy?

mep · May 29, 2012

I left out any examples of mechanical synergy (physics) that those of us who still listen to LPs have to deal with. Cartridges have to be matched to the tonearm being used. Low compliance cartridges, high compliance cartridges, low mass arms, and high mass arms. And this quickly crosses over to electrical synergy with having to match the impedance of the cartridge and the gain of the cartridge to the phono stage being used.

Synergy or whatever you want to call it surrounds us in audio. To deny that it exists is simply foolish.

Mike Lavigne · May 29, 2012

jkeny said:
Is this not a case of a manufacturer making an SPDIF interface that is out of spec (the spec being 75ohm) & through marketing turning this into some kind of "special synergy attribute" when out of spec 50 ohm "Zeel" cables are used?

i'm not qualified to answer your questions; OTOH Herve Delatraz, the darTZeel designer, is.

you can go to this PDF and scroll to page 27 and 28 to read about his implementation of both balanced XLR inputs and outputs and the 'zeel' interface.

http://www.dartzeel.com/PDF_Files/User_manual_B_EN.pdf

if you really want to understand the ideas behind Herve's interconnect implementations and eliminating electronic reflections in interconnects; find the November 2001 issue of Stereophile and read his article about it. if you cannot find it; i can scan it and send it to you.

MylesBAstor · May 29, 2012

jkeny said:
Yes & when you start down this route you are locked into ever more limited choices in the future i.e. you will judge new equipment by it's interaction with your system & may well reject neutral sounding equipment because it sounds "bad" in your system

Synergistic = 1 + 1 = 3

Additive = 1 + 1 = 2

So what most people are talking about isn't synergy but additivity.

Robh3606 · May 29, 2012

I don't know how many of you make your own speakers. But after doing that for a while you learn that for some odd reason, not sure exactly why, certain driver combinations just seem to work better. I am not talking about in obvious ways just that one particular combo sounds just right. Hard to put your finger on why exactly that is. But once you hear it it's a that's it moment.

Rob

NorthStar · May 29, 2012

-----Ethan? :b

JackD201 · May 30, 2012

While there are standards like Bruce mentioned, these aren't rigid standards. Take home CD players as an example most have 2v output voltage but I have seen 1v and one as high as 6v. Down the chain is a preamplifier or an amplifier waiting to receive these signals. Depending on the input sensitivity of the next stage, anything from 1v to 6v may be a better match. As LLoyd would put it...Synergy? I would say so.

Straight wire with gain has not been achieved yet. Ethan's position would be spot on if it were. Problem is these matches and mismatches cause non-linearities in FR. Ohms law will see to that since we are looking at interactions between components. So 1 (~linear component) + 1 (another ~linear component) will likely not be equal to 2. Whether the difference is a negative or a positive is another matter. Positive being what's being called "synergy" and negative a lack thereof. No magic although the effect on the listener may seem magical at first. It becomes really magical if it is arrived at by chance, that or just darned lucky!

MylesBAstor · May 30, 2012

MylesBAstor said:
Synergistic = 1 + 1 = 3

Additive = 1 + 1 = 2

So what most people are talking about isn't synergy but additivity.

Oh and the other case where 1 + 1 = <2

MylesBAstor · May 30, 2012

JackD201 said:
While there are standards like Bruce mentioned, these aren't rigid standards. Take home CD players as an example most have 2v output voltage but I have seen 1v and one as high as 6v. Down the chain is a preamplifier or an amplifier waiting to receive these signals. Depending on the input sensitivity of the next stage, anything from 1v to 6v may be a better match. As LLoyd would put it...Synergy? I would say so.

Straight wire with gain has not been achieved yet. Ethan's position would be spot on if it were. Problem is these matches and mismatches cause non-linearities in FR. Ohms law will see to that since we are looking at interactions between components. So 1 (~linear component) + 1 (another ~linear component) will likely not be equal to 2. Whether the difference is a negative or a positive is another matter. Positive being what's being called "synergy" and negative a lack thereof. No magic although the effect on the listener may seem magical at first. It becomes really magical if it is arrived at by chance, that or just darned lucky!

I would also suggest that the greatest chance of synergy would be using in tandem for instance, an amplifier and preamplifier from the same company, since they were designed together.

Ethan Winer · May 30, 2012

MylesBAstor said:
Synergistic = 1 + 1 = 3
Additive = 1 + 1 = 2
So what most people are talking about isn't synergy but additivity.

Yes, exactly. I was going by this definition:

"The interaction or cooperation of two or more organizations, substances, or other agents to produce a combined effect greater than the sum of their separate effects."

Oh and the other case where 1 + 1 = <2

Yes again, and this is what others were talking about, such as with impedance and level mismatches, or having too many components that all add similar euphonic distortion such that the end result does not sound good.

So now that we all agree on the correct definition of synergy, I still don't see how it's possible except possibly in a contrived situation.

--Ethan

Phelonious Ponk · May 30, 2012

You can call it what you want. Synergy sounds nice. An appropriate match of connected components, stated in specifications, would be more communicative. What I wonder is, those who speak of synergy in quasi-artistic terms, and seek something greater than the sum of the parts -- do they understand that balance is achieved through the appropriate matching of the input/output (or power/efficiency in the case of amps) specifications of those parts and that, when that is done, they haven't "improved" the system, they've merely made it function properly? And even if they're looking for something "more" than proper functionality, do they at least begin with a good match, then deliberately mis-match to see if they get something they like?

Do they read the specifications at all? Or do they just feel their way in the dark?

Because that would be truly foolish.

Tim

prerich · May 30, 2012

John72953 said:
If we now have to scientifically justify what is meant by synergy, perhaps it's time for me to get out of this hobby alltogether.

Agreed!!! Synergy would loosely be defined as "objects at peace with one another" or do we have to use the term "feng shui" in audio now

!

I like the way my system sounds - it makes me feel peaceful, provides relaxation, as well as excitement, and drama - I personally believe my system has synergy in a holistic (non-scientific) sense. We have to learn that we are not only creatures of logic and knowledge, but creatures of passion also.

jkeny · May 30, 2012

Ethan, I agree with you. I can't understand or comprehend how synergy, using that definition, can exist in audio!!

MylesBAstor · May 30, 2012

jkeny said:
Ethan, I agree with you. I can't understand or comprehend how synergy, using that definition, can exist in audio!!

Synergy doesn't exist widely in biological systems but it can. That was the basis of my doctoral thesis on combining drugs with radiation to treat tumors. And there are potentiation effects with a threshold too.

One area that might be considered synergistic is AC line effects.

microstrip · May 30, 2012

Phelonious Ponk said:
You can call it what you want. Synergy sounds nice. An appropriate match of connected components, stated in specifications, would be more communicative. What I wonder is, those who speak of synergy in quasi-artistic terms, and seek something greater than the sum of the parts -- do they understand that balance is achieved through the appropriate matching of the input/output (or power/efficiency in the case of amps) specifications of those parts and that, when that is done, they haven't "improved" the system, they've merely made it function properly? And even if they're looking for something "more" than proper functionality, do they at least begin with a good match, then deliberately mis-match to see if they get something they like?

Do they read the specifications at all? Or do they just feel their way in the dark?

Because that would be truly foolish.

Tim

Tim,

I am sure that, as usually, you already have all the answers, but could not resist again to suggest that almost all of us behave in a foolish way.

Assuming that you are referring to the less than 10 line specifications usually supplied by manufacturers, they are very limited - better using our dark experience with the brands than using them believing we are seeing the truth.

BTW, better being a fool than thinking that we know the truth because we believe in a few thumb rules.

jkeny · May 30, 2012

MylesBAstor said:
Synergy doesn't exist widely in biological systems but it can. That was the basis of my doctoral thesis on combining drugs with radiation to treat tumors.

Oh, I agree Myles & being a trained Biochemist I understand catalysts, etc but in audio I can't see it!

I see you modded your post

One area that might be considered synergistic is AC line effects.

I'm not sure what you mean here?

MylesBAstor · May 30, 2012

jkeny said:
Oh, I agree Myles & being a trained Biochemist I understand catalysts, etc but in audio I can't see it!

You missed my last line by responding too quickly

I would put AC line effects in the synergistic column.

NorthStar · May 30, 2012

A preamp, it has a volume control;
what amp is a good match (synergy) to have a wide range from its control indeed?
... From the low micro range to the high macro dynamical one. ...You got the picture anyway. :b
... With several minutiae increments for a perfect emotional listening blend.

And then you got mass (moving air), proportional to room's size displacement.
... And loudspeaker's enclosures matched with the right drivers; size and all.

Or are we trying to define the word 'synergy' all by itself, and in different contexts?
No! We're talking 'bout Audio Synergy.
And chemistry, biology, medicine, cars, humans, geology, geography, ... all have their own synergy. ... Energy in sync.

jkeny · May 30, 2012

MylesBAstor said:
You missed my last line by responding too quickly I would put AC line effects in the synergistic column.

You also missed my addition to my post answering this

I don't understand what you mean here?

microstrip · May 30, 2012

Assemble an excellent sounding system using all current top Audio Research units. Do the same for a Krell system.

After you have finely tuned both systems swap just the preamplfiers between systems. If after listening you still do not know what synergy achieves, I think you can forget about ever accepting the idea of its existence. BTW. modern ARC units have THD < .1% and noise better than 100 dB and Krell amps have input impedance around 100 kohm.

jkeny · May 30, 2012

microstrip said:
Assemble an excellent sounding system using all current top Audio Research units. Do the same for a Krell system.

After you have finely tuned both systems swap just the preamplfiers between systems. If after listening you still do not know what synergy achieves, I think you can forget about ever accepting the idea of its existence. BTW. modern ARC units have THD < .1% and noise better than 100 dB and Krell amps have input impedance around 100 kohm.

But I don't think this is synergy - I think the preamps in this case, are not a universally compatible !

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