Some More Evidence that Kids (American and Japanese) Prefer Good Sound

tonmeister2008

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Jun 20, 2010
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Geoffrey Morrison, an audio writer at CNET and Sound & Vision has posted a nice summary of my recent AES paper "Some New Evidence that Teenager and College Students May Prefer Accurate Sound Reproduction" presented at the recent 132nd AES Convention in Budapest, Hungary.

The paper should be available shortly for download at the AES E-library, but in the meantime, I have provided a YouTube video and a PDF of my presentation slides that summarize the main points of the research.


The abstract of the paper reads as follows:

A group of 58 high school and college students with different expertise in sound evaluation participated in two separate controlled listening tests that measured their preference choices between music reproduced in (1) MP3 (128 kbp/s) and lossless CD-quality file formats, and (2) music reproduced through four different consumer loudspeakers. As a group, the students preferred the CD-quality reproduction in 70% of the trials and preferred music reproduced through the most accurate, neutral loudspeaker. Critical listening experience was a significant factor in the listeners’ performance and preferences. Together, these tests provide some new evidence that both teenagers and college students can discern and appreciate a better quality of reproduced sound when given the opportunity to directly compare it against lower quality options.​


The effects of culture and trained versus untrained listeners on loudspeaker preference are topics that have been discussed in previous postings on Audio Musings. To further shed some light on this topic, I also ran 149 native speaking Japanese college students through the same loudspeaker preference test along with 12 Harman trained listeners. The graph below shows the mean loudspeaker preference ratings for these two groups of listeners along with the four different groups of high school and college students from Los Angeles.



Not surprising, (at least to me) I found that the Japanese college students on average preferred the same accurate loudspeaker (A) as did the 58 Los Angeles students and the trained Harman listening panel. The main differences among the different listening groups were related to the effect of prior critical listening experience: the more trained listeners simply rated the loudspeakers lower on the preference scale, and were more discriminating and consistent in their responses. This result is consistent with previous studies. The least preferred and least accurate loudspeaker (Loudspeaker D) generated the most variance in ratings among the different listening groups. This was explained by its highly directional behavior combined with its inconsistent frequency response as you move from on-axis to off-axis seating positions. This meant that listeners sitting off-axis heard a much different (and apparently better quality) sound than those listeners sitting on-axis.


While the small sample size of listeners in this test does not allow us to make generalizations to larger populations, nonetheless it is reassuring to find that both American and Japanese students, regardless of their critical listening experience, recognized good sound when they heard it, and preferred it to the lower quality options.


It would appear that the reason kids don't purchase better sounding audio solutions has nothing to do with their so-called "deviant" tastes in sound quality, but more to do with factors (e.g. price, convenience, portability, marketing, fashion accessory) that have nothing to do with sound quality. Music and audio companies should take notice that kids can indeed discriminate between good and bad sound, and prefer the more accurate version, despite what the media has been falsely reporting for the last few years. With that out of the way, we should focus on figuring out how to sell sound quality to kids at affordable prices and formats they desire to own.

The research suggests that if we cannot figure out how to sell better sound to kids, we have no one to blame but ourselves.
 
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Phelonious Ponk

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Jun 30, 2010
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We've been talking about you :). See the "It's all a preference" thread.

Tim
 

tonmeister2008

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audioguy

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Apr 20, 2010
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There seems to be a lot of anti-blind test hysteria online right now

Great article. However, there has been (for the last 25+ years) anti-blind testing -- on this forum and most other "high-end" sites. Not as much of an issue when not playing in the high-end sand box.

When the facts don't take you to the conclusion you have chosen, make up new facts!!
 

treitz3

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Hello, Sean and welcome back. I find the results a bit surprising on the Polk Rti10. This speaker was designed for use in a HT system and not primarily a 2 channel system. For music alone, it is a bright speaker and can tend to be hard on the ears.

Tom
 

tonmeister2008

WBF Technical Expert
Jun 20, 2010
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Great article. However, there has been (for the last 25+ years) anti-blind testing -- on this forum and most other "high-end" sites. Not as much of an issue when not playing in the high-end sand box.

When the facts don't take you to the conclusion you have chosen, make up new facts!!

You what you're saying is that the anti-blind faction will agree with this blind test because the results fit their beliefs? :)
 

tonmeister2008

WBF Technical Expert
Jun 20, 2010
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Hello, Sean and welcome back. I find the results a bit surprising on the Polk Rti10. This speaker was designed for use in a HT system and not primarily a 2 channel system. For music alone, it is a bright speaker and can tend to be hard on the ears.

Tom

Hi Tom,
I don't subscribe to the philosophy that there is an optimal loudspeaker for music and one for movies, and I'd be surprised if Polk would have marketed this speaker as a HT- only speaker.

A good speaker is a good speaker period! The Polk has a boom and tizz character to it as the frequency response indicates. I've talked to an engineer who works there and he tells me that is the character that marketing wants because they think it sells speakers.
 

treitz3

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Yeah, we've tried to sway Al Ballard away from that but he's rather steadfast on what he wants and maybe he's right to get at their target market. I see how well they scored on your test. Perhaps I mislead in my comments. They weren't marketed as an HT only speaker but they are well known in the Polk community for being more of an HT speaker. This speaker was part of an HT lineup that Polk had put out before the new [recent] lineup and many of the folks that bought them primarily for 2 channel listening had one common gripe. A hot top end for music. Those same folks had no complaints for that speaker on HT use. I'm just really surprised at how well they scored with your listeners.

Oh and I agree with you. The optimal loudspeaker should do both well.
 

mep

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Does speaker A, B, C, and D follow the picture show from left to right with the Infinity speaker being speaker A?
 

Bjorn

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If the speaker test was conducted by having listeners also off-axis, it wasn't a fair comparison. Martin Logan in particular is a very directional speaker and people who buy this speaker listen mainly on-axis. This test should have been done only with listeners seated on-axis for any fairness. I'm a bit dissapointed by this and it seems to more marketing for Harman products rather then a research.

I'm not a big fan of Martin Logan hybrid speakers which I experience lack macro dynamicks and well integrated bass, but I believe the controlled and limited dispersion is an advantage in most living rooms. Except for the backwave from the dipoles, they will have less high gain early reflections. In a normal living room and with listeners seated only on-axis, we could have seen a very different outcome.
 

amirm

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If the speaker test was conducted by having listeners also off-axis, it wasn't a fair comparison. Martin Logan in particular is a very directional speaker and people who buy this speaker listen mainly on-axis. This test should have been done only with listeners seated on-axis for any fairness. I'm a bit dissapointed by this and it seems to more marketing for Harman products rather then a research.
I have taken the test twice and both times I sat fully on-axis with the speakers being presented with ML among them. In both cases I gave ML much lower scores than others.

I'm not a big fan of Martin Logan hybrid speakers which I experience lack macro dynamicks and well integrated bass, but I believe the controlled and limited dispersion is an advantage in most living rooms. Except for the backwave from the dipoles, they will have less high gain early reflections. In a normal living room and with listeners seated only on-axis, we could have seen a very different outcome.
Per above, I heard it on axis so I assume that is how the other testers heard it. It sound was very unnatural as compared to the others under test.
 

Bjorn

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I have taken the test twice and both times I sat fully on-axis with the speakers being presented with ML among them. In both cases I gave ML much lower scores than others.


Per above, I heard it on axis so I assume that is how the other testers heard it. It sound was very unnatural as compared to the others under test.
That's interesting, but it doesn't look like this test was conducted that way.
Reading what is said in the quote below, it seems several of the listeners were sitting off-axis.
The least preferred and least accurate loudspeaker (Loudspeaker D) generated the most variance in ratings among the different listening groups. This was explained by its highly directional behavior combined with its inconsistent frequency response as you move from on-axis to off-axis seating positions. This meant that listeners sitting off-axis heard a much different (and apparently better quality) sound than those listeners sitting on-axis.
 

JackD201

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Were the speakers stationary? If that is the case why does off-axis response figure in the supporting data at all? If the speaker turntable was actually being moved during the actual listening (no way for the listener to know) please disregard the next question.

What happened to the output of the rear of the panel because... if the Vista was situated in a position with less boundary support than it would in a typical domestic installation, would it be fair to ask if they were being driven harder than usual to attain the 79dB B-weighted levels of the test which might point to something other than off axis response as the culprit?

Finally, we see two groups where the MLs did not finish last. One was the HS student group the other group Uni students from Japan. How was it arrived at that the Uni group had less experience and training than the other Japanese group also University students.

For the record I am not trying to debunk anything, I'm just really curious.
 

mep

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We are obviously past the AES paper submittal. You provided a presentation here that shows 4 speakers and identifies them by brand and price. It hardly seems fair at this point to let people assume which speaker is which. The inferences are that out of two of the Harman tests that have been talked about on this forum, both had different Martin Logan speakers get their clocks cleaned by a cheap Infinity speaker.
 

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