After 30 years the battle of the formats rages on

Soundminded · May 6, 2012

Offered without comment (at least for now);

http://standpointmag.co.uk/node/4433/full

Be sure to read comments by Michael Fremer and Sam Tellig.

Mike Lavigne · May 6, 2012

Soundminded said:
Offered without comment (at least for now);

http://standpointmag.co.uk/node/4433/full

Be sure to read comments by Michael Fremer and Sam Tellig.

it will be interesting how many posts on this thread will contain references to opinions based on recent listening perceptions of relatively high end vinyl.

cjfrbw · May 6, 2012

If somebody makes their living with digital, you would not expect them to say anything else. On the other hand, he goes "luddite" on the mp3 and ipod crowd, the same way he claimed the vinyl crowd were deluded luddites.

I listen to compressed a fair amount, through a Yamanha receiver in Santa Cruz, and it sounds pretty darned good for what it is. No comparison to vinyl, but it is a lot better than starving.

MylesBAstor · May 6, 2012

Mike Lavigne said:
it will be interesting how many posts on this thread will contain references to opinions based on recent listening perceptions of relatively high end vinyl.

I suspect you already know the answer to that question Mike

It's like I say. If the masses ever heard a properly set-up and modern R2R, they could never go back and listen to digital.

Robh3606 · May 6, 2012

If the masses ever heard a properly set-up and modern R2R, they could never go back and listen to digital.

Seems to me that's always been the "first" choice if you could get the software. That ship sailed long ago.

Rob

MylesBAstor · May 7, 2012

Robh3606 said:
Seems to me that's always been the "first" choice if you could get the software. That ship sailed long ago.

Rob

Maybe as a mass market medium but you're gong to see more and more music on R2R tape! Problem is always going to be that the software will be expensive since tape/reels alone are $100 for an album.

rbbert · May 7, 2012

MylesBAstor said:
Maybe as a mass market medium but you're gong to see more and more music on R2R tape! Problem is always going to be that the software will be expensive since tape/reels alone are $100 for an album.

FWIW, "more and more" than hardly any is still hardly any.

Soundminded · May 7, 2012

MylesBAstor said:
I suspect you already know the answer to that question Mike

It's like I say. If the masses ever heard a properly set-up and modern R2R, they could never go back and listen to digital.

Interesting that with all the reviews, comparisons, opinions of phono and cd players I've never read or heard any critiques of the sound of tape equipment. Does Otari sound better than Ampex? Which tape heads sound best, Nortronics or some other brand? Whose electronics sounds best, Crown or TEAC? Which tape formulation sounds better 3M, TDK, Maxell? Which sounds better CRO2 or conventional ferrous oxide? Is Dolby A, B, or C an improvement or degradation? Nobody talks about the relative sound of FM tuners either (maybe FM wasn't to be taken seriously anyway.) If for some audiophiles analog R2R is the reference standard, why are their no reviews of the sound, debates, flame wars like there are for other classes of playback equipment? This could be a whole new unexplored area of discussion (somehow I don't think it will be.)

Mike Lavigne · May 7, 2012

Soundminded said:
Interesting that with all the reviews, comparisons, opinions of phono and cd players I've never read or heard any critiques of the sound of tape equipment. Does Otari sound better than Ampex? Which tape heads sound best, Nortronics or some other brand? Whose electronics sounds best, Crown or TEAC? Which tape formulation sounds better 3M, TDK, Maxell? Which sounds better CRO2 or conventional ferrous oxide? Is Dolby A, B, or C an improvement or degradation? Nobody talks about the relative sound of FM tuners either (maybe FM wasn't to be taken seriously anyway.) If for some audiophiles analog R2R is the reference standard, why are their no reviews of the sound, debates, flame wars like there are for other classes of playback equipment? This could be a whole new unexplored area of discussion (somehow I don't think it will be.)

here are 2 Forum's (one is right here on WBF) with quite a bit of information on RTR. you are not going to see much agnst or conflict.

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/forumdisplay.php?18-Reel-To-Reel

http://www.tapeproject.com/smf/index.php

Mike Lavigne · May 7, 2012

MylesBAstor said:
I suspect you already know the answer to that question Mike

It's like I say. If the masses ever heard a properly set-up and modern R2R, they could never go back and listen to digital.

i would add really high end vinyl to your 'properly set-up RTR'. however, i still very much enjoy digital for what it is and listen to it often; my gripe comes from comments on analog formats from those less than fully informed about it at the highest levels.

MylesBAstor · May 7, 2012

rbbert said:
FWIW, "more and more" than hardly any is still hardly any.

Well it's not for those seeking the ne plus ultra and have the money. Plus there's been more tape machines at the last couple of shows combined than probably the last two decades. Plus Ki could outfit a few systems with his decks alone

Remember that SACD didn't take off because of a lack of software; make the software and they willl come for tape. No convenience and price will always act against R2R being mainstream, but the musical connection it provides is second to none. Digital is still far away.

MylesBAstor · May 7, 2012

Soundminded said:
Interesting that with all the reviews, comparisons, opinions of phono and cd players I've never read or heard any critiques of the sound of tape equipment. Does Otari sound better than Ampex? Which tape heads sound best, Nortronics or some other brand? Whose electronics sounds best, Crown or TEAC? Which tape formulation sounds better 3M, TDK, Maxell? Which sounds better CRO2 or conventional ferrous oxide? Is Dolby A, B, or C an improvement or degradation? Nobody talks about the relative sound of FM tuners either (maybe FM wasn't to be taken seriously anyway.) If for some audiophiles analog R2R is the reference standard, why are their no reviews of the sound, debates, flame wars like there are for other classes of playback equipment? This could be a whole new unexplored area of discussion (somehow I don't think it will be.)

You will, I just can't talk about it right now.

And thanks for some more ideas.

Vis a vis Nortonics, I can tell you they are head and shoulders better than the stock Technics heads.

Robh3606 · May 7, 2012

I thought that they stopped manufacturing RTR tape a few years back?? Are these releases on 10' reels at 15 ips or the old standard 7's with 7 1/2 IPS??

Rob

Soundminded · May 7, 2012

Mike Lavigne said:
here are 2 Forum's (one is right here on WBF) with quite a bit of information on RTR. you are not going to see much agnst or conflict.

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/forumdisplay.php?18-Reel-To-Reel

http://www.tapeproject.com/smf/index.php

Disappointingly these discussions never rise to the level of the global thermonuclear flame wars you'd see in some places for this turntable, that phono cartridge, this CD transport, that D/A converter. It's so bland, emotionless, ho-hum. Show me some real fireworks over tape decks and tape formulations. Show me something that gets someone worked up to the point of bursting an artery the way Fremer did over the article I originally linked to and then a Tellig telling him he's nuts.

Here's one of my favorite comments by "an expert";

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5VKvkd7WRc&feature=relmfu

JA; "Where does the science end and the silliness begin?"

I think he got it backwards. He should have asked "Where does the silliness end and the science begin?"

IMO for many audiophiles the right answer is never.

MylesBAstor · May 7, 2012

Robh3606 said:
I thought that they stopped manufacturing RTR tape a few years back?? Are these releases on 10' reels at 15 ips or the old standard 7's with 7 1/2 IPS??

Rob

You might be thinking about Ampex stopping manufacturing of R2R tape. RMGI (formerly BASF) still makes some very good tape like SM468 (that is still used by many engineers and also The Tape Project). Sure Bruce or Ki--or even Doc/Paul if they're reading this -- could comment more on the different tape formulations.

Basically we're talking about 15 ips, 2-track, 1/4 inch tape here for home consumers (though as Mike mentioned, he's getting his recording now made on 1/2 tape; of course the cost of the tape goes up too

).

Now that's not to deningrate 71/2 ips because as Rich/U47 has pointed out, generation quality can trump speed. And some might be surprised that some Jazz like Coltrane on Atlantic was actually recorded at 7/12 ips.

Soundminded · May 7, 2012

Once upon a time in the 1970s for those of you audiophiles too young to have seen it and those too old to remember Harman Kardon advertised a cassette tape deck that boasted that its tape heads wore out much more quickly than other manufacturers' heads did but sounded better. I don't think it was a top seller. Akai, originally Roberts (inventor of the "crossfield" tape head) boasted that their glass ferrite heads lasted longer than anyone elses. I'm old enough to remember when the industry switched from parabolic to hyperbolic heads. That's right folks, before hyperbolic heads all tape recorders required pressure pads that had to be carefully adjusted. Anyone have any comments on the relative merits of the difference in sound between parabolic and hyperbolic heads? What about the springiness in the material between the pads and the mounting bracket? I'll bet those have changed over time, either disintegrating or getting much harder depending on the material. Where's the drag out knock down debates over these important issues?

Soundminded · May 7, 2012

Once at a trade show I met Maxell's chief engineer. He showed me his measurements of his best formulation compared to TDK's best formulation made on the Nakamichi Dragon cassette recorder proving his was better. When I pointed out to him that to convince me he'd have to adjust the bias and equalization as optimal for the TDK tape, repeat the measurements, and then demonstrate the result for his tape was still better he offered me a job. Unfortunately at that time I wasn't able to commute to Moonachi New Jersey. I worked for a competitor entering the field of magnetic storage media (especially floppy discs) in Silicon Valley for a time and their engineers considered Maxell the best product on the market they'd have to match in performance.

MylesBAstor · May 7, 2012

Soundminded said:
Once upon a time in the 1970s for those of you audiophiles too young to have seen it and those too old to remember Harman Kardon advertised a cassette tape deck that boasted that its tape heads wore out much more quickly than other manufacturers' heads did but sounded better. I don't think it was a top seller. Akai, originally Roberts (inventor of the "crossfield" tape head) boasted that their glass ferrite heads lasted longer than anyone elses. I'm old enough to remember when the industry switched from parabolic to hyperbolic heads. That's right folks, before hyperbolic heads all tape recorders required pressure pads that had to be carefully adjusted. Anyone have any comments on the relative merits of the difference in sound between parabolic and hyperbolic heads? What about the springiness in the material between the pads and the mounting bracket? I'll bet those have changed over time, either disintegrating or getting much harder depending on the material. Where's the drag out knock down debates over these important issues?

There are several tape forums where those questions can be asked. I always refer people to www.theTapeProject.com since it has the greatest collection of knowledge on the net that I've found. But I'm sure our "resident" experts like Charlie King (stellavox), Rich Brown (U47), Bruce Brown, Roger D. and most notably Ki Choi could answer your questions. Not sure if Dan "Doc" Schmalle regularly reads our forum (?) People like John French who manufacture/relap heads are also an excellent source of information.

But there is debate about heads; take for example the butterfly heads used in Studers. Keith O. Johnson has talked over years about heads and their issues with JGH

MylesBAstor · May 7, 2012

Soundminded said:
Disappointingly these discussions never rise to the level of the global thermonuclear flame wars you'd see in some places for this turntable, that phono cartridge, this CD transport, that D/A converter. It's so bland, emotionless, ho-hum. Show me some real fireworks over tape decks and tape formulations. Show me something that gets someone worked up to the point of bursting an artery the way Fremer did over the article I originally linked to and then a Tellig telling him he's nuts.

Here's one of my favorite comments by "an expert";

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5VKvkd7WRc&feature=relmfu

JA; "Where does the science end and the silliness begin?"

I think he got it backwards. He should have asked "Where does the silliness end and the science begin?"

IMO for many audiophiles the right answer is never.

Well I hate to say it but you're in the wrong place if that's what you're looking for

I'm sure you can search the archives and find some test exchanges. Perhaps it's already been done here and it gets old real fast? Perhaps civil discussion is the way, not the wild, wild West you normally find on the internet eg. how people feel invulnerable and act like horses ***** when they get behind a computer screen. Then maybe Audioasylum.com or wreck.audio.high-end or wreck.audio.opinnion are better choices

Not for me. I for one, am tired of all this negativity.

Soundminded · May 7, 2012

MylesBAstor said:
Well I hate to say it but you're in the wrong place if that's what you're looking for

I'm sure you can search the archives and find some test exchanges. Perhaps it's already been done here and it gets old real fast? Perhaps civil discussion is the way, not the wild, wild West you normally find on the internet eg. how people feel invulnerable and act like horses ***** when they get behind a computer screen. Then maybe Audioasylum.com or wreck.audio.high-end or wreck.audio.opinnion are better choices

Not for me. I for one, am tired of all this negativity.

"Well I hate to say it but you're in the wrong place if that's what you're looking for"

Oh I wasn't talking about this place. Nobody here would ever engage in the type of discussion I was referring to. I mean just in general...other places where emotion gets completely out of hand. I'm sure you've seen the kind of web sites I'm referring to. No, not here ever.

After 30 years the battle of the formats rages on

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