Hmmm...

[Soundproof]

Kind of hard to believe that this is even an issue. There are a few no holds barred vinyl productions, many of Japanese origin, where they went to extraordinary lengths to secure an optimum result - but even with those records you were more steps away from the original source than you can be (note "can be") with tape. And a well calibrated tape rig registers a greater frequency range than what is possible with even no holds barred vinyl (given that the microphones are sensitive to the limit of the tape).

I'm trying to remember which famous mastering engineer, British, it was who not that long ago stated he couldn't understand why anyone would want to go back to vinyl, given the struggles they had getting things approximately right. And I really enjoy vinyl, but I have both tape and vinyl.

An element worth considering, and I write as someone in my mid-50s, is the fact that our hearing down-calibrates with age, when it comes to the higher end of the frequency range, and that this may create a semblance of parity between the two formats if one goes by hearing alone. Which is good, if you ask me. You get to enjoy both.

[tomelex]

Kind of hard to believe that this is even an issue. There are a few no holds barred vinyl productions, many of Japanese origin, where they went to extraordinary lengths to secure an optimum result - but even with those records you were more steps away from the original source than you can be (note "can be") with tape. And a well calibrated tape rig registers a greater frequency range than what is possible with even no holds barred vinyl (given that the microphones are sensitive to the limit of the tape).

I'm trying to remember which famous mastering engineer, British, it was who not that long ago stated he couldn't understand why anyone would want to go back to vinyl, given the struggles they had getting things approximately right. And I really enjoy vinyl, but I have both tape and vinyl.

An element worth considering, and I write as someone in my mid-50s, is the fact that our hearing down-calibrates with age, when it comes to the higher end of the frequency range, and that this may create a semblance of parity between the two formats if one goes by hearing alone. Which is good, if you ask me. You get to enjoy both.

Good comment about ears and age and "down calibration" as you call it. It facinates me that we have so many audiophiles here babling on about things that they do not hear anymore. Yes, we have "trained ears" and all but man, we do have limits, and they are getting stricter with age.

The days of being able to hear the vertical oscillator (something like 15Khz or so) in an old TV set are long gone for many here.

Well recorded tape, vinyl, or Cd or digital, all sound great. IMO 99% of the "sound" is in the recording and thus I mean what we prefer to hear or songs we like...preferences..

Tom

[treitz3]

Please know I am not taking a defensive position for tape here; I just find this incredibly interesting. Even if 100% of listeners agreed with Mike's opinion in this post, the fact that mastered LPs are different than master tapes in being another generation away from the original and constrained somewhat by the lathe's capabilities and the physical limitations of the delivery media, this result might have a variety of explanations.

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr...up&2601&4#2601

Kip

I am so glad I have the appreciation of all of the formats, for each one has it's own attributes and deficiencies. Personally, I just enjoy the music. At the end of the day, that's all that really matters. Carry on, as I'm sure you all will but keep in mind that we are all in the same hobby.

Enjoy the music!

Tom

[c1ferrari]

Tape master > cutting tape master adjusted for the lathe > cutter EQ curve > lacquer > master > mother > stamper > your vinyl record at 33 1/3 > re-EQ'd. (There's also a reason why we like 45 rpm)

Tape master > dubbing master > your tape at 15ips (and 7 1/2 can be pretty darn good).

Appreciate the synopsis, Soundproof

[c1ferrari]

With tape dubs such as those from Tape Project and Opus 3, we are getting as true a copy as it's possible to get these days, unless we have the original masters in hand. :-)

There are other putative sources...
I've received a couple of Opus 3 tapes...the folks there were kind enough to print tones

[cjfrbw]

Myles B. Astor
Interesting! I've gotten some 15 ips copies of some rock such as Steely Dan and Yes and it's shocking how much they messed the transfer up--even when compared to say George Piros' work (who was in my book a genius).

August 19, 2011Wor Mastering
this is from remasters especially
I feel the messups came from the limiting amplifiers and not setting the vertical phase rotation properly
when in doby, leave them 30/90
doubt
but how many cutting engineers even know what vertical phase rotation is, let alone how to use it??
the newbees say "mono the bottom" (the horror
Laura brought in the pizza, it has to cool--
\too hot now

August 19, 2011Myles B. Astor
What do you mean by vertical phase rotation?

August 19, 2011Wor Mastering
The stylus sees augmentation from each channel as "lift" and if both channels are out of phase on the bottom, you can litterly squeeze the stylus upward and out of the groove-To circumvent thos from occuring, you rotate phase below a certain frequency (I like 120Hz) 30 degrees laterial and 90 degrees vertical and this is barely audible but no way a stylus can be pushed too far upward

August 19, 2011Wor Mastering
this not thos

August 19, 2011Myles B. Astor
I understand -- to prevent groove narrowing right?

August 19, 2011Wor Mastering
it is mearly a way to rotate the bottom end phase to keep the stylus properly aligned during high modulation bottom end passages
right!
but the status quo is suggesting monoing all bottom below say 180hz
This is insanity but so many subscribe to it. Look up Phase rotation by Orban
In FM transmissions, phase rotation is used to keep the modulation from overswinging
you want to keep it +/- 100KHZ
50 is better
it is frequency modulation so the modulation swings can move wildly +/- if you dont rotate phase, the orban optimod does this for every FM broadcast, doing it correctly will be inaudible
Overmodulation from FM yields less distance for the signal

August 19, 2011Myles B. Astor
Yes seem to remember reading about Orban along time ago; will have to look it up again.

August 19, 2011Wor Mastering
the numbers on the phase rotator is not absolute degrees, it is a "scale"
kind of like the numbers on a volume control
even dB numbers can be off--but the 1-10 numbers, just a self reference-
33cm/sec is a hot album
Telarc 80041 (1812) first issue passed 120cm/sec
Shures, Stanton 881S, could cope
Cannons---

August 19, 2011Myles B. Astor
At least back then....

August 19, 2011Wor Mastering
m91ed could track 100cm/sec at 1g
it was the "trackingist" cartridge ever made LOL
It could stay planted no matter what
even the v15's suffered some with those levels
m95 could not cope
I've turned turntables at 45 degree angles with an m91ed, and it stayed

August 19, 2011Myles B. Astor
Can't believe you screen the LP. 'Course back then who knew about cartridge alignment and have the tools available today for azimuth, zenith, tracking force, etc.

August 19, 2011Wor Mastering
we did study it to the best of our ability, we could get close by ear
vertical tracking angle and overhang you could get very close
force and anti-skid was also reliable
the mids would certainly change with wrong vta
change it for different thickness of vinyl--all the time

August 19, 2011Myles B. Astor

Very interesting exchange.

[jtinn]

Bruce Brown, anything to add?

[MylesBAstor]

For those interested, Bill Roberts/Wor Mastering is also a speaker builder. Two years ago, his speakers received very high praise in Stereophile's AXPONA. Very interesting gentleman and have had many IM conversations on FB, this being just one of them

[Mike Lavigne]

Bruce Brown, anything to add?

[MylesBAstor]

Now the one question that hasn't been asked is would you expect the tape to sound like the LP? Hardly, because the tape sent for mastering (that has been pre-Eq'd) and/or what the mastering engineer does in the course of mastering in order to engrave those grooves will definitely affect the sound. And it's possible what has been sent for mastering has in some cases, been changed for the better.

The one area though that I would find hard to believe could be improved on by the turntable is dynamic range. The record is in many cases compressed to fit all the music on one side and/or what was the label's policiy. But most LPs were cut, esp. in the Golden Era of LPs, with the turntables of the day in mind. Or you see what happened when RCA tried to do a dynamic cut on Reiner's Pines of Rome. They had to take back the 1S stamper because there wasn't a cartridge in its day that could track those grooves.