It’s All a Preference

[jkeny]

Not quoting you John! Just a general observation that there is a point where our ears can not hear things anymore, whther it be frequcny or level or masking.

Tom

Yes, agreed & -120dB would certainly be out of audibility but I wondered why you quoted this figure?

[Phelonious Ponk]

from jensens website synopsis of the paper:

Jensen transformers improve signal quality by removing hum, buzz and interference signals of other types (such as radio frequency interference) from the audio signal. The Bessel low pass filtering effect also removes ultrasonic distortion products generated by previous amplification stages from the audio signal. These ultrasonic distortion products create additional intermodulation distortion products when amplified by succeeding stages. These signals are folded back into the audible frequency range, generating an audio modulated, non-harmonically related noise floor. This type of noise is characterized by listeners as a "veil" in front of the music. The term "Spectral Contamination" was coined for this effect by Deane Jensen and Gary Sokolich in their 1988 AES Paper titled "SPECTRAL CONTAMINATION MEASUREMENT". Copies of this paper are available from the Audio Engineering Society and from Jensen Transformers, Inc

Tom,
so we have to be careful as always about audibility of folded back distortions, ie if they are 120db down to start with and we fold them back and they are still 110db down can it be heard in a normal listening situation

Thanks, my interest was not in the existence of distortions but in the audibility of the specific distortions John was referring to.

Tim

[jkeny]

Thanks, my interest was not in the existence of distortions but in the audibility of the specific distortions John was referring to.

Tim

But Tim,
You started by denying that there were such distortions, I believe, & I was wildly speculating.

So now that you accept that there are such distortions, what particular ones are you talking about - I'm not sure as I mentioned a couple of different types. And what decibel level do you consider are realistically appropriate for the distortions? If you are able to specify these two pieces of information & what they are realistically based on (not just figures plucked out of the air) then we could begin to discuss what might be audible & what might not be!

[Gregadd]

H. H. Scott was a manufacturer of tubed audio components back in the 1950s and 60s. The chief engineer was Mr. Donald von Recklinghausen. His most famous quotation goes something like this: "If a component measures good and sounds good, it is good. If a component sounds good but measures bad, you're measuring the wrong thing." To say that the wrong measurements have been made for decades would be to take the easy way out. It might be far more appropriate to say that in the absence of the "right" measurement, too much emphasis has been placed on the "wrong" measurement. While this "wrong" measurement is still an appropriate and valuable measurement to make, it is just not the most important measurement anymore.

Well said.

[Gregadd]

Then why on earth build your product line around dipole technology that deliberately utilizes indirect reflections as a feature? Even MLs "entry level" floor standers are dipole, though they sound significantly better off axis than the panels. These speakers are made to create reflections, therefore, by your reckoning they time-smear by design.

Tim

Because of the curved panels ML is not a true dipole.

In the CLX the curved mid/tweeter driver, which operates from 360Hz and up, does not exhibit the typical beaming that most panel speakers have and acts more like a line-source than a dipole. In fact I measured the polar response of the mid/tweeter panel and it is very flat and uniform over about a 60-degree arc. So the side wall reflection becomes more of an issue with the curved mid/tweeter than it would be with a typical dipole but the smooth dispersion available from the cylindrical mid/tweeter driver is a big plus. The bass panel measured down to about 40Hz in my room with reasonable output - which is very good for a full range electrostatic speaker.

Bryston

[Gregadd]

I don't get this argument that keeps getting repeated. Are you a worse lawyer Greg that one of your competitors who makes more money? Should I pick a law firm based on most number of clients and revenue?

Of course the decision to pick a lawyer is complex. Some lawyers such as PI plaintiffs are judged almost exclusively on noentary awards. Some law firms require huge resouces and many lawyers. As much as I might be temtped by the fee, I don't think I would be the right lawyer for Microsoft merger or anittrust suit. OTOH I could have easily kept Martha Stewart out of jail.
Choosing th right speaker is heavily dependent on music type and room

[MarinJim]

There's a difference between preferences and fidelity. For one, fidelity comes first.

With all due respect, not for the end user (in this case me).

[MylesBAstor]

With all due respect, not for the end user (in this case me).

Jim, think you misattributed the quote to me.

[MarinJim]

Jim, think you misattributed the quote to me.

My heart felt apologies, if that is the case.

[MylesBAstor]

My hear felt apologies, if that is the case.

NP.