Does Burmester play well with others?

caesar

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Many folks believe that Burmester is a system based on one vision of what music should sound like. It is frequently reviewed as such. Once you take out a component, you lose the magic that Dieter Burmester has imbued his system with. It's kind of Naim - you buy their whole system and the sonic signature that comes with it. Pull out a Naim component, and it's not the same, awful actually mixing amps and preamps, in case of Naim.

Anyone here mix and match Burmester components with other brands?
 

docvale

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Mar 21, 2011
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Many folks believe that Burmester is a system based on one vision of what music should sound like. It is frequently reviewed as such. Once you take out a component, you lose the magic that Dieter Burmester has imbued his system with. It's kind of Naim - you buy their whole system and the sonic signature that comes with it. Pull out a Naim component, and it's not the same, awful actually mixing amps and preamps, in case of Naim.

Anyone here mix and match Burmester components with other brands?

I have listened to full Burmester systems a number of times, but I've never listened to individual components set in not "homogeneous" systems. Notwithstanding, I know a friend from Greece who happily lived with a Burmester CD player driving a Symphonic Line integrated. Now he switched to a Naim DAC, just to mention the violation of the whole system approach ;)

In a show, I guess you'll never see mixed systems when the brand produces everything: this works also for MBL, McIntosh, Gryphon and so on.

I think that the syngergy between preamp and power amp may be crucial, but I wouldn't be scared by the rest...
 

FrantzM

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Short answer : they do play nice with almost anything that is within their specifications... Their individual components remains stellar but they don't require the "system" approach .. Many here have mated their Burmester amps and preamps with other Brands
 

microstrip

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Short answer : they do play nice with almost anything that is within their specifications... (...)

This answer can be considered true, but is really too short. :)

I recently considered the famous 911 mk3 for my system. It was not easy to find the specifications (I could not find them in their site, please correct me giving the link if I am wrong) , but at audioaficonado www.audioaficonado.orgI could get

Burmester 911 MK3
Sensitivity Input: 770mV Unbalanced/Balanced
Impedance Input: 22.9kOhms Unbalanced, 1.8kOhms Balanced


Many (almost all) tube and some solid state preamplifiers can not drive properly such low impedance in balanced mode.
 

AudioExplorations

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To me the versatility of Burmester and how well it plays with other gear is one of it's strong points.

From TAS on the 911mk3: "More interesting yet, to these ears, is how happy it is driving all sorts of speakers, from the ultra-revealing Kings to the sweetly euphonic Coltranes. An amp for all seasons, and virtually all setups"

From Jeff Dorgay's review on the 911: "During the past six months, I’ve had the opportunity to use the 911 MK 3 with about 20 different pairs of speakers, all with excellent results. But the bulk of the review listening was done with the Verity Audio Sarastro II, the MartinLogan CLX, the GamuT S-7 and recently the YG Acoustics Anat II Studio. All world-class speakers in their own right and all of them have given their best performance with the 911 MK 3."

Personally I have run the 911 with PMC EB1i, Rockport Ankaa, and TAD CR1 speakers, all to great effect. Sources include Wavelength cosecant and Weiss Medea DACs run direct to the 911.

Microstrip makes a good point, the balanced input impedance is very low, making it a punishing load to drive in balanced configuration. Unbalanced however almost anything can drive it. My little single ended tubed wavelength cosecant DAC does a fantastic job for example.

I use only a 911 and a 948 conditioner in my setup, everything else is from other brands.
 

microstrip

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Joost,

Curiously it seems that it is brand reserved for subjective listeners :D - I could not find measurements on most of its fabulous line of equipments.
I noticed that you have REL G1 subs in your system - at what frequency do you cross them?
 

AudioExplorations

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Joost,

Curiously it seems that it is brand reserved for subjective listeners :D - I could not find measurements on most of its fabulous line of equipments.
I noticed that you have REL G1 subs in your system - at what frequency do you cross them?

I suspect Dieter does not publish measurements because his amps do not measure particularly well.

Here is what he writes on the subject (I am just full of quotes today ;)):

"The sound of a high-end audio system is determined by a multitude of technical parameters. The higher the ability to understand and to control the sound implications of these parameters the less it becomes likely that the sonic soul of a stereo system is the result of coincidence. As former professional musician Dieter Burmester is still driven by his passion for music which he lets run free in his home studio as often as possible. He is convinced that musicality cannot be described adequately with the means of measuring data. Measurements are able to make a statement about the technical and mechanic quality of the piece of equipment. They cannot, however, predict the actual sound. Proof is given by the fact that it is possible to build two devices, which have exactly the same technical data but a completely different sound.
The musicality Dieter Burmester is demanding from his components is that they process the unaltered signal from the source to the speakers. This results in the unequalled reproduction, which is characteristic for all Burmester appliances. In order to achieve the extraordinary Burmester sound, we use the latest technologies and finest electronic components in combination with the results of longstanding research and developments added by our uncompromising quality requirements. Finally, apart from technological perfection, the human ear is still the most crucial criteria. Only when a newly developed device has passed the last authority – the skilled ears of our staff – the undiluted listening pleasure is guaranteed."

I personally consider the 911 to be an objectivist amp as to my ears it is completely neutral and transparent to source and just gets out of the way and let's the music flow through.

Regarding my REL G1's; they are a recent addition and I am still in the process of optimizing positioning in my room. I will have the time to dial them in this weekend, but now have them set at 25Hz. Being a sealed design they do not have very steep cross over slopes, and I suspect it will end up being somewhere between 25-35Hz.
 

garylkoh

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Burmester 911 MK3
Sensitivity Input: 770mV Unbalanced/Balanced
Impedance Input: 22.9kOhms Unbalanced, 1.8kOhms Balanced


Many (almost all) tube and some solid state preamplifiers can not drive properly such low impedance in balanced mode.

I don't think that's right. I ran the 911 Mk3 with 7m long balanced cables and my preamp with absolutely no problems. I'll see if there are specifications in the 911 owner's manual.

I think that Burmester plays nice with almost everything - only thing to watch out for is that Burmester uses pin 3 hot on the XLR. If your gear uses pin 2 hot (which is more common), it will be out of phase.
 

microstrip

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I don't think that's right. I ran the 911 Mk3 with 7m long balanced cables and my preamp with absolutely no problems. I'll see if there are specifications in the 911 owner's manual.

I think that Burmester plays nice with almost everything - only thing to watch out for is that Burmester uses pin 3 hot on the XLR. If your gear uses pin 2 hot (which is more common), it will be out of phase.

Gary,
What is your preamplifier?
 

FrantzM

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Short answer : they do play nice with almost anything that is within their specifications... Their individual components remains stellar but they don't require the "system" approach .. Many here have mated their Burmester amps and preamps with other Brands
Although mine was all Burmester ;) except for the speakers ...
 

AudioExplorations

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Apr 5, 2012
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I confirm the following from the 911 data sheet inside the box:

Sensitivity Input: 770mV Unbalanced/Balanced
Impedance Input: 22.9kOhms Unbalanced, 1.88kOhms Balanced

The pre-power coupling 'rule of thumb' is that the ratio preamp output impedance to power amp input impedance must be greater than 10.

So in theory any source/preamp with an output impedance equal to or less than 2290 Ohms can be run single ended and 188 Ohms can be run balanced into a 911 without issues.

Preamps with robust output stages are typically around 50 Ohms. My tubed wavelength cosecant dac is 500 ohm, so I run it single ended. My Weiss media has an output impedance of 0.2 ohms so will drive it balanced with ease.
 
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MarinJim

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MarinJim

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I confirm the following from the 911 data sheet inside the box:

Sensitivity Input: 770mV Unbalanced/Balanced
Impedance Input: 22.9kOhms Unbalanced, 1.88kOhms Balanced

The pre-power coupling 'rule of thumb' is that the ratio preamp output impedance to power amp input impedance must be greater than 10.

So in theory any source/preamp with an output impedance equal to or less than 2290 Ohms can be run single ended and 188 Ohms can be run balanced into a 911 without issues.

Preamps with robust output stages are typically around 50 Ohms. My tubed wavelength cosecant dac is 500 ohm, so I run it single ended. My Weiss media has an output impedance of 0.2 ohms so will drive it balanced with ease.

Thanks again for info.
 

MarinJim

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I use the Burmester phono 100 with Ayre MXR and KXR not upgraded to the 20s and I am very happy with the sound.

Let me very clear on this, Burmester is a great company and their founder/owner has an excellent ear. But, it is the Burmester ear, which is a little too romantic/warm. I don't belittle the Burmester sound, but I found some manufactures did more with way less. Point of fact, my Magnus 300 kills my Burmester 911 and my Concert Fidelity does the same to my Burmester 089. In all respect, it is just my opinion.
 

MarinJim

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I understand your point of view. I have never seen, heard or read a review on Magnus 300 or Concert fidelity guess I need to get out more.
Many people love Bryston and Krell I have never cared for the sound on the other hand I like the ayre and I like the Burmester 100 with the KXR and MXR. The only all Burmester systemI have heard was at a show. I find shows a hard place to make a informed choice. The show set up did not blow me away.
You feel Burmester is to warm and others have said their is a Burmester sound but I think all gear has a flaw it is what bothers you the lest. Anyone who has a system that sounds like live music has likely not been to a live show in a long time. If I ever get a chance to hear Magnus or Concert Fidelity I will. Thanks for your input.

Thank you for your response. I mistakenly said Burmester (to me) sounded warm, but I ment not enough detail without harshness, if that makes any sense.
 

porselen

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Feb 28, 2013
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Burmester to me dont have enough detail, nor power and i believe i fully understand what you say MarinJim! Even as it doesnt sound detailed enough, it sometimes sound harsh or "greyish"
 

EspenL

Well-Known Member
Aug 2, 2014
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Norway
Many folks believe that Burmester is a system based on one vision of what music should sound like. It is frequently reviewed as such. Once you take out a component, you lose the magic that Dieter Burmester has imbued his system with. It's kind of Naim - you buy their whole system and the sonic signature that comes with it. Pull out a Naim component, and it's not the same, awful actually mixing amps and preamps, in case of Naim.

Anyone here mix and match Burmester components with other brands?

Hi
I have Magico together with Burmester and the sound is fantastic good :)
Here are some pictures from my system :)

http://www.hifisentralen.no/forumet...1-espen-s-burmestersystem-28.html#post1899017

Espen
 

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