Sweat over Room Dimensions and Mode Calculations, or Just Deal With Them?

caesar

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May 30, 2010
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As I am reading up on acoustics, I have come across a variety of room dimension ratios:

H: L :W
1 x 1.14 x 1.38
1 x 1.28 x 1.54
1 x 1.6 x 2.33

1 x 1.3 x 1.9
1 x 1.4 x 1.9
1 x 1.5 x 1.9

1 x 1.6 x 2.56 (famous golden ratio)

Since there is so much variability with all of these room ratios, one is likely to be correct - kind of reading your horoscope. As a result, some folks have just suggested to build a rectangular room that is over 2,000 cubic feet and then properly treat it. Is this a good strategy?
 

Ethan Winer

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Jul 8, 2010
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All of the "standard" ratios are good. There's no such thing as a perfect ratio for various reasons. If there were, then all rooms would be built that way. Further, a large room with a poor ratio is usually better than a too-small room with a good ratio. Unless the poor ratio is really poor.

Do you actually have the chance to build a new room having (nearly) any dimensions you want? Or are you fretting over an existing room?

--Ethan
 

microstrip

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I agree with Ethan on this subject. When I adapted my office/listening room in my house I joined two rooms and built a new wall to get the perfect ratios 1-1.6-2.6 . However after a few months and lots of acoustic treatment experiences I removed the new wall and went in a long room with the ratios of 1 -1.6 -3.8. It was a wise decision -after installing some bass trapping, some diffusion and absorption it was one thousand times better than the old room.
 

caesar

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May 30, 2010
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All of the "standard" ratios are good. There's no such thing as a perfect ratio for various reasons. If there were, then all rooms would be built that way. Further, a large room with a poor ratio is usually better than a too-small room with a good ratio. Unless the poor ratio is really poor.

Do you actually have the chance to build a new room having (nearly) any dimensions you want? Or are you fretting over an existing room?

--Ethan

Thanks, Ethan. Nothing is settled yet, and I am still doing research. One option could be to gut an existing room and built in room treatments. Another option is to build from scratch. Family/ spousal considerations, architecture considerations, and zoning regulations will present constraints and drive a lot of the answers.

Do you have a definition of a small room? If let's say you had an existing 14 x 20 room that you could gut and treat properly, would it make sense to spend a lot of "negotiating effort" and capital to get a slightly bigger, build-from-scratch room, say 15 x 22 or 15 x 24? Or would the difference be marginal from the existing room?
 

amirm

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Apr 2, 2010
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There are no good dimensions per-se. Much if not all of the research there was relative to one speaker/position, one listening position, and ideal rectangular rooms. Change those assumptions and you invalidate them.

From Dr. Toole:

"None of this is wrong [research into magic dimensions], but, in sound reproduction, it is irrelevant!"
 

kevinh

New Member
Mar 30, 2012
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Wouldn't the ideal be an Isosceles trapezoid (perhaps with a curved back wall) with a ceiling that varies in height.....lotsa luck getting the wife to buy in. Them you would need the CFD software to analyse the room....;)
 

microstrip

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Caesar,
When you read recipes about room dimensions, you have to understand what is behind them. If it is relevant for the purpose of your room consider it important, otherwise forget it.
For example, if you are a purist and do not want to consider any form of bass equalization, hate subwoofers or have some strange speakers that only sound good a X meters from the back wall, then the ratios can become important.

BTW, if you do not have any criteria you want to follow go for the larger space - you can always use it for a big bass trap if it is needed!
 

Bruce B

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I can't even get a definitive answer for speaker placement. Good-luck trying to get anyone to agree on room dimensions!
 

JackD201

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I can't even get a definitive answer for speaker placement. Good-luck trying to get anyone to agree on room dimensions!

LOL. It really is one big case of "it depends".

Personally, I advocate a RFZ approach since I find it more flexible in dealing with non-symetrical layouts and odd dimensions. Many studio architects like Walters and Storyk actually spec highly irregular shaped rooms. One could say RFZ is an extension of near field listening a meter or two more. A basic real world example would be let's say to go with the long wall instead of the short which makes the side walls less in play. With no direct first reflections from these points treatment can go on the second and third reflection points. Whether you choose absorption to shorten reverberation or diffraction to spread out coverage will depend on the pre set targets. The goal is to have more direct sound than reflected so Amir's quote of Dr. Toole is apt. Room size or shape is irrelevant in this regard. One thing for sure is that we don't want RT to be too long. For me anything above .7 in any band is bothersome. Others may find that dry. Others don't even think RT matters at all!

Having said that, when we talk about nodes typically we talk about bass not mids and highs. In a small room you have only two choices that I know. Trap the heck out of frequencies that cause the peaks or fill in the nulls by distributing LF from multiple locations. Personally I like the latter approach. In a small room with limited physical placement options however that choice may not be practical.
 

DonH50

Member Sponsor & WBF Technical Expert
Jun 22, 2010
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I prefer primes but any ratio that avoids integer multiples will reduce room mode interaction. There are many other variables, of course, and proper treatments and positioning of listener and speakers can make a "bad" room sound great.
 

JackD201

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I'm a prime guy too Don :) 3x7x11

That said, I agree with you totally. Without treatments it would still be a mess. What it did allow for is a higher nodal frequency which is much easier to treat. The key word in your post for me is "proper". Always good to have clear objectives from the start.
 

Jeff Hedback

[Industry Expert]
Feb 9, 2011
62
0
0
Indpls, IN
www.HdAcoustics.net
quoting from self

Caesar,

The difference between an existing ~ 14x20 or a new 15x22 would lead me toward the renovation of the existing 14x20. Of course, that is if your isolation needs can be met in the existing. I do prefer a bit more width but 14' W should easily be fine (ceiling height depending). That just seems practical.

Below is the text from the Room Size and Construction Section of my co-published white paper (with Nyal). You are going to have room modes (in fact we want them). What you are hoping to achieve by optimizing room dimensions and construction is that the modes are evenly spaced and have similar modal strength. Then treat to taste (simplifying on purpose) and locate spkrs/ears carefully and enjoy.


G: Room Size and Construction
• Square footage should be in the range of 224 to 475 sq. ft.
• Room volume 1,750 to 4,750 sq. ft.
• The room dimensions should mathematically have no common divisors and no pair of dimensions should share more than one common divisor
• The use of (2x) layers of 5/8” gypsum board is advised for walls and ceiling
• Irregular shape rooms, rooms with varied construction methods on different surfaces and rooms with adjoining secondary spaces should all be carefully considered for the task of high performance listening.
Both the Square footage and Room Volume are excellent qualifiers of a performance driven dedicated listening environment. The desired range of square footage should be between 225 and 475 sq ft. The room volume should follow suit with a desired cubic volume of 2,250 to 4,750 cu ft. So then, what should the exact room dimensions be?...well, it depends (sorry, no easy answers exist). However, having at least one dimension between 20’ and 25’ allows the room’s lowest mode to be lower than 30Hz. The ceiling height should be 9.5’ to 11’ as this places the listener’s ears comfortably below the floor to ceiling modal null. Regarding internal room volume, the targeted range yields greater modal density extending down toward 50Hz. Following these guides will offer tangibly smoother and more even bass response and a more pure connection to the speaker’s true overall sound.
The ratio of room dimensions (width, height and length) is a foundational aspect of your listening experience. In this regard, your room should be thought of as an instrument. Proper relationships between the room dimensions will yield the smoothest, most consistent bass response, period. Sorry to report though, there are no “factory set” ideal room ratios. There are good starting points such as the Louden Ratio of 1, 1:4, 1:9. If given a blank page, the room dimensions should mathematically have no common divisors and no pair of dimensions should share more than one common divisor. The goal is to yield an even density and distribution of room modes.
How the walls, floor and ceiling are constructed is a significant part of the sonic signature of a listening room. Massive concrete surfaces retain nearly all “bass” energy while lightweight residential partitions allow nearly similar amounts to pass through to adjoining spaces. Optimal sound quality in this realm is a lot like Goldilocks…not too hot or too cold but just right. Sonically (not factoring isolation needs), “just right” is a double course (2x) of 5/8” gypsum board. This yields enough mass for the low frequency energy to be punchy and focused when desired but not so much that the resonances are overwhelming. Further benefits can be had from use of certain isolation hangers and dampeners as they diminish “after-ring” elements that building materials can exhibit when fully excited by sound vibrations.
 

caesar

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2010
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Caesar,

The difference between an existing ~ 14x20 or a new 15x22 would lead me toward the renovation of the existing 14x20. Of course, that is if your isolation needs can be met in the existing. I do prefer a bit more width but 14' W should easily be fine (ceiling height depending). That just seems practical.

Below is the text from the Room Size and Construction Section of my co-published white paper (with Nyal). You are going to have room modes (in fact we want them). What you are hoping to achieve by optimizing room dimensions and construction is that the modes are evenly spaced and have similar modal strength. Then treat to taste (simplifying on purpose) and locate spkrs/ears carefully and enjoy.


G: Room Size and Construction
• Square footage should be in the range of 224 to 475 sq. ft.
• Room volume 1,750 to 4,750 sq. ft.
• The room dimensions should mathematically have no common divisors and no pair of dimensions should share more than one common divisor
• The use of (2x) layers of 5/8” gypsum board is advised for walls and ceiling
• Irregular shape rooms, rooms with varied construction methods on different surfaces and rooms with adjoining secondary spaces should all be carefully considered for the task of high performance listening.
Both the Square footage and Room Volume are excellent qualifiers of a performance driven dedicated listening environment. The desired range of square footage should be between 225 and 475 sq ft. The room volume should follow suit with a desired cubic volume of 2,250 to 4,750 cu ft. So then, what should the exact room dimensions be?...well, it depends (sorry, no easy answers exist). However, having at least one dimension between 20’ and 25’ allows the room’s lowest mode to be lower than 30Hz. The ceiling height should be 9.5’ to 11’ as this places the listener’s ears comfortably below the floor to ceiling modal null. Regarding internal room volume, the targeted range yields greater modal density extending down toward 50Hz. Following these guides will offer tangibly smoother and more even bass response and a more pure connection to the speaker’s true overall sound.
The ratio of room dimensions (width, height and length) is a foundational aspect of your listening experience. In this regard, your room should be thought of as an instrument. Proper relationships between the room dimensions will yield the smoothest, most consistent bass response, period. Sorry to report though, there are no “factory set” ideal room ratios. There are good starting points such as the Louden Ratio of 1, 1:4, 1:9. If given a blank page, the room dimensions should mathematically have no common divisors and no pair of dimensions should share more than one common divisor. The goal is to yield an even density and distribution of room modes.
How the walls, floor and ceiling are constructed is a significant part of the sonic signature of a listening room. Massive concrete surfaces retain nearly all “bass” energy while lightweight residential partitions allow nearly similar amounts to pass through to adjoining spaces. Optimal sound quality in this realm is a lot like Goldilocks…not too hot or too cold but just right. Sonically (not factoring isolation needs), “just right” is a double course (2x) of 5/8” gypsum board. This yields enough mass for the low frequency energy to be punchy and focused when desired but not so much that the resonances are overwhelming. Further benefits can be had from use of certain isolation hangers and dampeners as they diminish “after-ring” elements that building materials can exhibit when fully excited by sound vibrations.

Thanks for chiming in, Jeff. Good info above. Do you have any thoughts on the question of going from 14 x 20 to what bigger size will make a significant improvement?
 

Jeff Hedback

[Industry Expert]
Feb 9, 2011
62
0
0
Indpls, IN
www.HdAcoustics.net
You're very welcome Caesar. A significant improvement, assuming the longest dimension is front to back, could be gained with a little more width. For example, having ~3' more width would allow much more flexibility in speaker placement. What is the ceiling height of the current 14x20 room? I'd be glad to do a quick study and offer comments.
 

caesar

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2010
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You're very welcome Caesar. A significant improvement, assuming the longest dimension is front to back, could be gained with a little more width. For example, having ~3' more width would allow much more flexibility in speaker placement. What is the ceiling height of the current 14x20 room? I'd be glad to do a quick study and offer comments.

Thanks, Jeff. It's 9.5 feet.
 

Ethan Winer

Banned
Jul 8, 2010
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75
New Milford, CT
If let's say you had an existing 14 x 20 room that you could gut and treat properly, would it make sense to spend a lot of "negotiating effort" and capital to get a slightly bigger, build-from-scratch room, say 15 x 22 or 15 x 24? Or would the difference be marginal from the existing room?

Jeff Hedback gave a more detail answer than I could have, and I agree the relatively small size difference is not worth a lot of effort and expense. 14 x 20 is a nice size, and definitely good enough for great results given appropriate treatment.

--Ethan
 

microstrip

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Experts are telling you that acoustically there is no great difference, but in my humble ignorance and for my taste there is a significant difference between a 14x20 or a 15x24 room. If you like a spacious, enveloping sound, and want to keep your SoundLabs or other large size speakers go for the larger room. Others will thing differently, but I would not hesitate. Also as you have a high ceiling aesthetically the 15x24 will be much preferred.

Sorry to break the unanimity ...
 

kevinh

New Member
Mar 30, 2012
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Sussex cty NJ
Experts are telling you that acoustically there is no great difference, but in my humble ignorance and for my taste there is a significant difference between a 14x20 or a 15x24 room. If you like a spacious, enveloping sound, and want to keep your SoundLabs or other large size speakers go for the larger room. Others will thing differently, but I would not hesitate. Also as you have a high ceiling aesthetically the 15x24 will be much preferred.

Sorry to break the unanimity ...


WIth the Sound LAbs the extra lenght is definitly a benefit, I like those speakers ~ 8ft from the front wall.
 

caesar

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2010
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775
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Experts are telling you that acoustically there is no great difference, but in my humble ignorance and for my taste there is a significant difference between a 14x20 or a 15x24 room. If you like a spacious, enveloping sound, and want to keep your SoundLabs or other large size speakers go for the larger room. Others will thing differently, but I would not hesitate. Also as you have a high ceiling aesthetically the 15x24 will be much preferred.

Sorry to break the unanimity ...


Thanks for the perspective, Microstrip. Ideally I would like to get the room as big as possible. But there are always trade-offs in life. We will see how the cards fall when all of the constraints are taken into account.
 

Soundproof

New Member
Jan 13, 2012
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Oslo, Norway
As I am reading up on acoustics, I have come across a variety of room dimension ratios:

H: L :W
1 x 1.14 x 1.38
1 x 1.28 x 1.54
1 x 1.6 x 2.33

1 x 1.3 x 1.9
1 x 1.4 x 1.9
1 x 1.5 x 1.9

1 x 1.6 x 2.56 (famous golden ratio)

Since there is so much variability with all of these room ratios, one is likely to be correct - kind of reading your horoscope. As a result, some folks have just suggested to build a rectangular room that is over 2,000 cubic feet and then properly treat it. Is this a good strategy?

You mean H:W:L, right? And not H:L:W - in your legend?
 

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