Vinyl thickness and stylus results?

Johnny Vinyl

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May 16, 2010
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We all know there are various thicknesses of vinyl, but I want to talk specifically about 180g vs 200g vinyl and their interaction with styli. I am bringing this up as many people seem to feel that the Classic records 180g reissues are generally better than their 200g reissues. This may be just an issue with CR vinyl, I don't know.

The thicker the vinyl, the deeper a groove can be cut, right? Theoretically I suppopse this means that one should be able to draw more information out of the vinyl, but instead I hear people saying there is more distortion from the 200-g. I witnessed this myself with their Tubular Bells pressing.

The only reason that I can come up with for this anomaly is that some styli cannot get deep enough into the groove, and as a result exhibit some distortion? If this is true then 200g reissues should be avoided, unless one has a SOTA cartridge.

Is this flawed logic?
 

MylesBAstor

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Apr 20, 2010
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We all know there are various thicknesses of vinyl, but I want to talk specifically about 180g vs 200g vinyl and their interaction with styli. I am bringing this up as many people seem to feel that the Classic records 180g reissues are generally better than their 200g reissues. This may be just an issue with CR vinyl, I don't know.

The thicker the vinyl, the deeper a groove can be cut, right? Theoretically I suppopse this means that one should be able to draw more information out of the vinyl, but instead I hear people saying there is more distortion from the 200-g. I witnessed this myself with their Tubular Bells pressing.

The only reason that I can come up with for this anomaly is that some styli cannot get deep enough into the groove, and as a result exhibit some distortion? If this is true then 200g reissues should be avoided, unless one has a SOTA cartridge.

Is this flawed logic?

Perhaps it was more a case of CR pushing the limits of the presses at that time to manufacturer a 200 gm LP? Among the issues are getting even heating and flow in the press.

I also like to think that rather than deeper grooves, the thicker LP allows you to have less interaction between the two sides of an LP. You can hear how this comes about by comparing a single-sided LP vs its double sided LPs. I've heard that many times, beginning with the old EMIs. (In the UK, record labels would send music critics single sided LPs to review and occassionally they pop up when a collection is sold.)
 

Johnny Vinyl

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So the cartridge one uses should not play a factor then between the 2?
 

Vincent Kars

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Jul 1, 2010
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You can’t compress a fluid (that’s why hydraulic brakes work :) )
If you put some fluid (vinyl) between 2 cylinders regardless of the amount of fluid, the presses will stop as soon as the pressure is in balance.
So I do think it highly unlikely you get “deeper” grooves.

An obvious one is that vinyl differs in thickness.
If you play a thicker one without adjusting the height of the tone arm, you are tracking at a different angle.
 

MylesBAstor

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So the cartridge one uses should not play a factor then between the 2?

Not quite sure what you mean but certainly stylus profile should affect the ability to recover the info in those deeper grooves. I've found that used LPs sound often play better than the surface would indicate with exotic styli; I assume this is in part due to the LPs being played with say elliptical styli that don't get deep into the groove. Therefore the modern styli is able to trace undamaged/played portions of the groove (I also find that SLT arms also play one "damaged" LPs better than pivoted arms; in fact some weren't playable with pivoted arms!)

I would also assume the thicker profile prevents some SnapBack and better lands.
 

RBFC

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Is it possible that the vinyl cures slightly differently because of the increased thickness? Could the 200g pressing be somewhat softer, so that the stylus could actually compress the wall a bit?

Lee
 

bblue

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Apr 26, 2011
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Is it possible that the vinyl cures slightly differently because of the increased thickness? Could the 200g pressing be somewhat softer, so that the stylus could actually compress the wall a bit?
The stylus compresses the groove wall on all vinyl regardless of thickness. This is one reason you should wait at least several hours before replaying the record, to give the vinyl a chance to reform to its original shape. Some say 2-3 hours, others up to 24 hours. The original wisdom was 24 hours, but there have since been dissenters. I don't really know who is most correct, but it would certainly vary based on vinyl composition, shape of the stylus and vertical tracking force.

The depth of the groove is primarily set by the cutting process into the original lacquer blank. Unless there are now blanks with a thicker lacquer coating intended for making mothers and stampers with deeper grooves (I don't know for sure) the groove depth is set right then and there, regardless of what it is ultimately stamped into.

Also, it isn't the particular style of stylus (elliptical, line-contact) that sets the depth that it rides in the groove, but the widest part of the contact area designed to be be in direct contact with both groove walls. There are large ellipticals, very small ellipticals, and the same holds true for line-contact styli. One thing they all have in common is that the very V tip is not intended to ever touch the bottom of the groove. There's always some amount of 'air' there. And you don't want the contact point of the stylus riding too high in the groove as it will be far more sensitive to vinyl scuffs and surface scratches.

--Bill
 

RBFC

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Apr 20, 2010
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The stylus compresses the groove wall on all vinyl regardless of thickness. This is one reason you should wait at least several hours before replaying the record, to give the vinyl a chance to reform to its original shape. Some say 2-3 hours, others up to 24 hours. The original wisdom was 24 hours, but there have since been dissenters. I don't really know who is most correct, but it would certainly vary based on vinyl composition, shape of the stylus and vertical tracking force.

The depth of the groove is primarily set by the cutting process into the original lacquer blank. Unless there are now blanks with a thicker lacquer coating intended for making mothers and stampers with deeper grooves (I don't know for sure) the groove depth is set right then and there, regardless of what it is ultimately stamped into.

Also, it isn't the particular style of stylus (elliptical, line-contact) that sets the depth that it rides in the groove, but the widest part of the contact area designed to be be in direct contact with both groove walls. There are large ellipticals, very small ellipticals, and the same holds true for line-contact styli. One thing they all have in common is that the very V tip is not intended to ever touch the bottom of the groove. There's always some amount of 'air' there. And you don't want the contact point of the stylus riding too high in the groove as it will be far more sensitive to vinyl scuffs and surface scratches.

--Bill

I understand that vinyl is not completely rigid and that the stylus/groove interface is a dynamic interaction. If, however, the vinyl is softer in one LP version of the same recording, isn't it likely that some small differences in stylus motion will occur? A softer vinyl may dampen a small stylus motion that a more rigid formulation would more accurately reproduce. Isn't this effect observable when playing metal or lacquer masters?

Lee
 

vinylphilemag

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I think one other bonus 200g pressing bring to the table over their 180g brethren is that the thicker vinyl will have more mass, and therefore likely more self-damping (against stylus- and airborne- induced vibrations).

I also agree with Myles' observations about some old records sounding better then they look with high-end carts.
 

bblue

Well-Known Member
Apr 26, 2011
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I understand that vinyl is not completely rigid and that the stylus/groove interface is a dynamic interaction. If, however, the vinyl is softer in one LP version of the same recording, isn't it likely that some small differences in stylus motion will occur? A softer vinyl may dampen a small stylus motion that a more rigid formulation would more accurately reproduce. Isn't this effect observable when playing metal or lacquer masters?
Good question. I know lacquer also gives some like vinyl, but does not recover.

As for vinyl softness I suppose it's possible to vary from type to type, or possibly even batch to batch. But I would think the differences would be very small and not discernible in one playing. Probably more of a long term degradation with repeated close-in-time plays.

Of course, if played with a stylus of a particularly small contact area being tracked with too much weight, a softer vinyl might be tortured more. I've just never heard of any significance in vinyl types (other than new, versus re-used or bastard formulas which make audiophiles stand up and shout).

--Bill
 

MylesBAstor

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Apr 20, 2010
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I understand that vinyl is not completely rigid and that the stylus/groove interface is a dynamic interaction. If, however, the vinyl is softer in one LP version of the same recording, isn't it likely that some small differences in stylus motion will occur? A softer vinyl may dampen a small stylus motion that a more rigid formulation would more accurately reproduce. Isn't this effect observable when playing metal or lacquer masters?

Lee

Clearly there are different vinyl formulations and some are softer than others (and lacquers are quite soft and snapback; for best results the laquers should be plated ASAP). My experience is that early Chesky's pressed using the softer vinyl forumulation at the mastering facility in NY (the name escapes me at the moment) didn't hold up with time. May have sounded a little better initially but over time got lots of tics and pops. Didn't Classic go through a ton of different vinyl forumulations? And Chad bought their "Clarity" formulation IIRC.

I also don't think the deformation is as linked to the motion of the stylus as it is by the pressure and "rubbing" of the stylus and subsequent heat released during playing--which isn't insignificant at the micro level.
 

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