Is Speaker height important to creating realism?

Phelonious Ponk

New Member
Jun 30, 2010
8,677
23
0
To me the problem would always be the phasey thing happening with the 2 midrange units too far apart. Some time ago I played around with 2 Peerless units arranged such, and didn't like the "funniness" of the sound when moving my head vertically.

Seriously enjoying music from anywhere in the room? Obviously very loony -- why, I hear there are some strange individuals who can experience this with live music ... :b:p

Frank

Just to make sure we keep things clear, Frank, no one has accused you of being looney for enjoying music from anywhere in the room. We've accused you of being....I'm not sure what the term is...for claiming that you were geting the same imaging from anywhere in the room.

Tim
 

rbbert

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2010
3,820
239
1,000
Reno, NV
To me the problem would always be the phasey thing happening with the 2 midrange units too far apart. Some time ago I played around with 2 Peerless units arranged such, and didn't like the "funniness" of the sound when moving my head vertically.

Frank

One of the design goals of a properly implemented d"Appolito M-T-M configuration is to make the 3 drivers "appear" sonically as one point source, although that is primarily in the horizontal plane, not the vertical.
 

NorthStar

Member
Feb 8, 2011
24,305
1,323
435
Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
8 feet = 96 inches.
9 feet = 108 inches.

Floorstanding loudspeakers in America have their drivers (point source) at between 28 and 48 inches from the floor.

In France they have higher ceilings, much higher in certain homes.

In Northern Europe they also have high ceilings (and some lower ones too).

In Great Britain, and other parts of Europe, the average height of floorstanding loudspeakers (point source origin), is between 26 and 44 inches from the floor. In some parts of Europe they have smaller rooms than in America (USA in particular).

OK, it can go forever and all over the map regarding height of ceilings (but 8 feet is about average, or 96 inches). One third of 96" is 32 inches. A sound point source at 32" in a loudspeaker would fit nicely in that 8-foot ceiling room. We can also use fifths, sevenths, ...
...As a good baseline. And we can visit and explore all avenues, and in all parts of the world ...

Those are just rough averaging figures, so don't sweat it too much.
The main factor is to select a pair of loudspeakers that match your listening room acoustically,
and not aesthetically. ...Floorstanders, or monitors with the right stand's height.
 
Last edited:

treitz3

Super Moderator
Staff member
Dec 25, 2011
5,459
961
1,290
The tube lair in beautiful Rock Hill, SC
Incorrect, Tim. I believe the word you were looking for would be incorrect.
 

fas42

Addicted To Best
Jan 8, 2011
3,973
3
0
NSW Australia
Just to make sure we keep things clear, Frank, no one has accused you of being looney for enjoying music from anywhere in the room. We've accused you of being....I'm not sure what the term is...for claiming that you were geting the same imaging from anywhere in the room.

Tim
Whether I am "incorrect" could be debated, I am sure that systems super optimised for imaging characteristics would be superior in revealing fine detailing in the soundstage than what I experience. But that's not what interests me: I'm after the sense of a "real" musical event occurring, and that's what I get when the system's ticking nicely. As mentioned by me just a day or so ago, my current test disk is the Philips CD of "Dusty in Memphis", 1988. Now, this is a tricky recording, heavily mangled by late 60's mixing desks, and Dusty's voice is a dead giveaway of system problems. I want her voice to be totally convincing, and the slightest issue with the sound instantly ruins that.

The advantage of worrying about getting the "tonality" right is that imaging, and tons of "air" automatically follow. That Dusty recording develops all of that in spades if I do my homework correctly, and I don't have to be in a precise place in the room for it to be so ...

Frank
 

Gregadd

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
10,517
1,774
1,850
Metro DC
The trend in USA is toward cathedral ceilings. Over 12' is not uncommon.
 

RogerD

VIP/Donor
May 23, 2010
3,734
318
565
BiggestLittleCity
" Is Speaker height important to creating realism?"

Realism...How real? Completely three dimensional,with time and space at a level where the illusion passes from stereo to virtual reality. I truly doubt any bookshelf or speaker below 4 feet can achieve sound reproduction like this. I also think a room correction circuit is needed. My speakers are about 5 feet tall and then my time and phase correction speakers are mounted above them,so in my system the speakers are almost eight feet high. That seems to do the trick.
 

fas42

Addicted To Best
Jan 8, 2011
3,973
3
0
NSW Australia
I truly doubt any bookshelf or speaker below 4 feet can achieve sound reproduction like this. I also think a room correction circuit is needed. My speakers are about 5 feet tall and then my time and phase correction speakers are mounted above them,so in my system the speakers are almost eight feet high. That seems to do the trick.
I'd beg to differ on that, Roger. Having height in the physical structure of the speakers can only help, but it's not necessary. Again, there are many ways to skin a cat: improving the system tune will lift the size of the soundstage, in every sense.

I don't think I've ever had a speaker with the tweeter, at the top, beyond about 2 1/2 ft from the floor -- that's what the last 2 setups were measuring at. But that doesn't stop the good stuff happening: it's always been the quality of the sound emerging from the drivers that determines the subjective realism for me ...

Frank
 

JackD201

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
12,308
1,425
1,820
Manila, Philippines
In my experience tweeter height has less to do with creating a sense of realism than being able to evenly load the room with energy. The most realistic speakers I've heard all have bass drivers up high exciting the upper room modes. Genesis 1s, IRS Series loudspeaker, VR-11s, MM3s, Big Dunlavy's, The Beveridge stats with top firing woofers. The 11's, MM3s and Dunlavy's aren't true linesources, some call them concentric arrays or quasi-linesources with tweeters at regular height. To me anyway, realism entails a kind of envelopment by the acoustic energy field generated. Realism is diminished when you get the sense that the top portion of the room is dead space. To energize that area you've got to work the system hard. If it is a quiet piece and you have to play it louder than what you are accustomed to hearing similar ensemble sizes live, that disconnect with experience likewise takes away from the sense of reality. A lot has been said about using multiple subs. Not enough has been said about mounting subs high. I believe LF drivers set in high positions does wonders.
 

fas42

Addicted To Best
Jan 8, 2011
3,973
3
0
NSW Australia
To me anyway, realism entails a kind of envelopment by the acoustic energy field generated. Realism is diminished when you get the sense that the top portion of the room is dead space. To energize that area you've got to work the system hard. If it is a quiet piece and you have to play it louder than what you are accustomed to hearing similar ensemble sizes live, that disconnect with experience likewise takes away from the sense of reality.
Agree ...

A lot has been said about using multiple subs. Not enough has been said about mounting subs high. I believe LF drivers set in high positions does wonders.
Disagree ...

For me it's all about the upper midrange and treble working right. The subjective difference in volume when this area is working correctly vs. not is enormous; in fact Roger believes that his system actually does alter in measurable level between these two states. However, I've experienced it enough times to pick what's going on; when the higher frequency bands come on song that "energy field" feels like it's lifting the roof off, it completely envelopes the space.

And it never yet has been about the bass. Yes, that provides a nice foundation; but is not essential to get fullness of sound. Horror of horrors, I actually ran the HT for quite some time with the subwoofer unplugged, while sorting out main box issues. That meant I had nothing worthwhile below about 150Hz, but I had no catastrophic loss of bigness of sound: if the system was on song I had full, enveloping, energising realism from just the little speakers; switching on the bass was then just adding cream on top ...

Frank
 

treitz3

Super Moderator
Staff member
Dec 25, 2011
5,459
961
1,290
The tube lair in beautiful Rock Hill, SC
In my experience tweeter height has less to do with creating a sense of realism than being able to evenly load the room with energy....To me anyway, realism entails a kind of envelopment by the acoustic energy field generated. Realism is diminished when you get the sense that the top portion of the room is dead space. To energize that area you've got to work the system hard. If it is a quiet piece and you have to play it louder than what you are accustomed to hearing similar ensemble sizes live, that disconnect with experience likewise takes away from the sense of reality. A lot has been said about using multiple subs. Not enough has been said about mounting subs high. I believe LF drivers set in high positions does wonders.
Hello, Jack. Great minds must think alike;). I just so happen to concur with everything you mention here. With regards to the subs being raised to listening level as opposed to being set on the floor, the realism factor takes a noticeable jump towards the real thing in my experience. I currently have my dual Tyler subs on spiked Target stands. This puts them at about 2 feet up off the ground and the center of the woofers on said subs about 6 or 7" down from the mains tweeter height. What I have observed after the installation of the stands was a sense of a "heightened" sound stage. It didn't seem to be as low as it was while they were on the floor. Then there was a clear change with impact at the listening position. I could definitely feel the sound wave better. The entire sense of the sound stage as a whole just plain filled in better and for some reason, the images were easier to spot. Overall, just a better experience that brought you more perceived realism.

" Is Speaker height important to creating realism?"

Realism...How real? Completely three dimensional,with time and space at a level where the illusion passes from stereo to virtual reality. I truly doubt any bookshelf or speaker below 4 feet can achieve sound reproduction like this. I also think a room correction circuit is needed. My speakers are about 5 feet tall and then my time and phase correction speakers are mounted above them,so in my system the speakers are almost eight feet high. That seems to do the trick.
Hello, Roger. What you have described written in bold makes me think that even with the time and phase correct speakers, having two mains will cause an inherent issue that you can not get rid of. That issue is lobing. Are you familiar with lobing and how it affects a system?
 

RogerD

VIP/Donor
May 23, 2010
3,734
318
565
BiggestLittleCity
Hello, Roger. What you have described written in bold makes me think that even with the time and phase correct speakers, having two mains will cause an inherent issue that you can not get rid of. That issue is lobing. Are you familiar with lobing and how it affects a system?

Treitz,

Lobing isn't a problem.
 

treitz3

Super Moderator
Staff member
Dec 25, 2011
5,459
961
1,290
The tube lair in beautiful Rock Hill, SC
I don't see how it couldn't be. I had a system at one point [when I was a frequency listener] that had 2 pair of mains. It sounded incredible but the one issue that could only be addressed by going back down to two mains, was the issue of lobing. I will say that the system in which I am referring too gave many hours of listening pleasure that didn't have the right to sound as good as it did.
 

RogerD

VIP/Donor
May 23, 2010
3,734
318
565
BiggestLittleCity
I don't see how it couldn't be. I had a system at one point [when I was a frequency listener] that had 2 pair of mains. It sounded incredible but the one issue that could only be addressed by going back down to two mains, was the issue of lobing. I will say that the system in which I am referring too gave many hours of listening pleasure that didn't have the right to sound as good as it did.

I do not have two pairs of mains.
 

treitz3

Super Moderator
Staff member
Dec 25, 2011
5,459
961
1,290
The tube lair in beautiful Rock Hill, SC
My speakers are about 5 feet tall and then my time and phase correction speakers are mounted above them,so in my system the speakers are almost eight feet high.
Oh, my apologies. Perhaps I was misreading the above quote by you.
 

RogerD

VIP/Donor
May 23, 2010
3,734
318
565
BiggestLittleCity
" Is Speaker height important to creating realism?"

Realism...How real? Completely three dimensional,with time and space at a level where the illusion passes from stereo to virtual reality. I truly doubt any bookshelf or speaker below 4 feet can achieve sound reproduction like this. I also think a room correction circuit is needed. My speakers are about 5 feet tall and then my time and phase correction speakers are mounted above them,so in my system the speakers are almost eight feet high. That seems to do the trick.

Oh, my apologies. Perhaps I was misreading the above quote by you.

aka pyschoacoustic
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing