Latest krell saga

jazdoc

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Aug 7, 2010
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Hey Mark,

Glad you are in a better place. Jeffrey Jackson who designed my preamp seems to take the optimistic approach to situations like this... "well I'm learning something"

Your journey certainly has me thinking about the eternal question...when do you stop? In my profession, perfection is oft times the enemy of good. OTOH Mae West probably had it about right when she observed that "Too much of a good thing is wonderful!". I'm getting old enough (and my system has reached a place) where any sonic improvement would be an unexpected and happy bonus. I spend way more time listening to music and looking at music website than I do looking at audio equipment. Might be worthy of a separate thread....
 

Orb

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Sep 8, 2010
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Before taking the plunge Mark with tubes, just bear in mind there is slightly more noise from these than the engineered solid state designed to have a really low noise floor.

I feel the same about hiss/hum as you do, and my environment has unfortunately poor mains so it is interesting to note how this can impact preamps, while also further compounded or resolved by certain mains conditioners/mains strips.

Anyway before taking the jump to tubes, which in general have a worse noise floor compared to the best solid state designed focused on that, I would strongly consider taking a look at the latest model from Ayre K-5xe MP preamp - similar price to the Audio Research LS27.
It seems to me this comes as close as you can get to tubes from solid state while having incredible low noise floor, and would be one of my top audition choices if I was in North America.
http://www.stereophile.com/content/ayre-k-5xesupmpsup-line-preamplifier
Ideally it would be the Ayre reference preamp 2nd hand but not sure how easy they are to find and at what price in US.

For tubes, I still feel from my experience Audio Research are one of the best for low noise floor (especially current models), while many other manufacturers I could not tolerate due to my sensitivity-preference of not hearing hiss or hum.

Cheers
Orb
 
Last edited:

fas42

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Jan 8, 2011
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Glad you are in a better place. Jeffrey Jackson who designed my preamp seems to take the optimistic approach to situations like this... "well I'm learning something"

Your journey certainly has me thinking about the eternal question...when do you stop? In my profession, perfection is oft times the enemy of good. OTOH Mae West probably had it about right when she observed that "Too much of a good thing is wonderful!".
There is an end goal, when you can stop; and that is when your "worst" recording sounds wonderful. Over and over again I have thought that finally I found a recording that can't be recovered, that has been too badly damaged in the recording and/or mastering process, intentionally or otherwise, so that I can't listen to it with pleasure. And I've always been proven wrong, that the "poor" quality is actually highlighting a deficiency in my system, which has always proven to be fixable, or capable of being improved .

Frank
 

MarinJim

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Feb 2, 2011
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I have my Burmester 911 MK3 up for sale on A-gon.:)
 

LL21

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Dec 26, 2010
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mep

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Apr 20, 2010
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Before taking the plunge Mark with tubes, just bear in mind there is slightly more noise from these than the engineered solid state designed to have a really low noise floor.

I feel the same about hiss/hum as you do, and my environment has unfortunately poor mains so it is interesting to note how this can impact preamps, while also further compounded or resolved by certain mains conditioners/mains strips.

Anyway before taking the jump to tubes, which in general have a worse noise floor compared to the best solid state designed focused on that, I would strongly consider taking a look at the latest model from Ayre K-5xe MP preamp - similar price to the Audio Research LS27.
It seems to me this comes as close as you can get to tubes from solid state while having incredible low noise floor, and would be one of my top audition choices if I was in North America.
http://www.stereophile.com/content/ayre-k-5xesupmpsup-line-preamplifier
Ideally it would be the Ayre reference preamp 2nd hand but not sure how easy they are to find and at what price in US.

For tubes, I still feel from my experience Audio Research are one of the best for low noise floor (especially current models), while many other manufacturers I could not tolerate due to my sensitivity-preference of not hearing hiss or hum.

Cheers
Orb

Orb-As always, thanks for your thoughtful reply and your experienced insight. Not too long ago, I owned the ARC LS17 and the ARC PH-3SE. Both were quiet enough that I could live with them and I would assume the LS27 would be quieter still. Noise was not an issue with either one of those pieces.

I know the Ayre preamp you mentioned has received a rave review from Stereophile and it was rated as being in their “Class A” of preamps. However, it has two balanced inputs and one balanced output which is the same as my KBL.

Here is what I like about the LS27 in terms of features:

1. Balanced inputs for all sources
2. Adjustable gain for all sources (3 levels of gain to choose from)
3. Only two tubes
4. Tube hour meter is one function of the display which is cool
5. Remote that adjusts input level, phase, and volume on the fly
6. Supposedly sounds better than the REF-3 according to ARC

You have heard the LS27 and compared it to the REF-5 and said that the differences were not huge. The LS17 was known as the “baby” REF-3 and now the LS27 is being called the “baby” REF-5. I hope the LS27 is closer to sounding like the REF-5 than the LS17 was close to sounding like the REF-3.
 

mep

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Apr 20, 2010
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Not yet. I'm still trying to decide what the best move is.
 

mep

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Something in my system is lacking in top end extension, at least in comparison to tubes that I have owned and my cheaper SS gear. I'm getting mixed messages on the Krell "dark" sound with some telling me it's not the amp. You too have stated that Krell has a dark sound and you have owned both Krell preamps and power amps. What do you think? Is it the preamp, power amp(s), or both?

The KBL does many things right. It sounds beautiful, but I just wonder if part of the beauty comes at the expense of the dark sound that some people find very appealing. As I said before, dark does sell. I will say the KBL is the best sounding SS preamp I have ever owned. It does put meat on the bones in a way that reminds me of tubes. The C2a is thin sounding by comparison.
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
I think it is the amp rather the the preamp but it's anyone's guess

It would be nice if you could lay both preamps in your system

I owned the Krell KRC-HR preamp and it was wonderful

I understand your desire however about tubes
 

FrantzM

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Apr 20, 2010
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Hi

Have you tried the C2 with the KSA-250?
 

mep

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Apr 20, 2010
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Hi

Have you tried the C2 with the KSA-250?

Nope. I would have to run the KSA-250 in unbalanced mode and I haven't tried that yet.
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Jun 30, 2010
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How are you able to tell which is producing the "dark" sound - amp or preamp? Or whether or not the Yamaha is "thin" compared to the Krell pre? How do you know how the Krell pre compares to the Yamaha, or, for that matter, how the Krell amps compare to the PLs if you haven't isolated the components and tested them in a reference system? I would go back to the Yamaha/PLs, as the more familiar reference and listen to them exclusively and extensively for a week or more. I'd listen, and choose my material very deliberately, methodically and repetitively. Then I'd change things out one at a time. I know that's a lot of work with such heavy components. I know I'm getting all anal and analytical and it's no fun, but dude, you've been through enough. It's time to establish a reference, listen to one component at a time, at least, if you can't do blind, and make a serious attempt at understanding what you're hearing from where. Now? You really can't know. And you're contemplating heading back from whence you came without knowing.

Tim
 

mep

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Apr 20, 2010
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Tim-Again, good questions and suggestions. I will try to address these in order:

How are you able to tell which is producing the "dark" sound - amp or preamp?

I haven’t “proven” that one way or the other yet and I have received mixed messages from those who have owned or still own Krell gear.

Or whether or not the Yamaha is "thin" compared to the Krell pre?

This is strictly supposition on my part and I could damn well be wrong because I haven’t carried out the experiments you mentioned. The thin sound could all possibly be coming from the Phase Linear 400 Series 2 amps and I won’t know that unless I try all combinations. The Krell combo in comparison to the C2a/PL 400 combo is much different in sound quality. The C2a/PL 400 combo has good low bass, but from 80-160 Hz or so it doesn’t sound as linear as the Krell combo. The C2a/PL 400 combo sounds more open and extended at the opposite end of the frequency spectrum than the Krell combo, but the C2a/PL 400 combo sounds brash in comparison. Male singers sound thinner and their voices aren’t fleshed out like they are with the Krell gear. The Krell gear sounds much more real overall, it just doesn’t have the top end extension that I’m used to hearing. But it is smooth as butter.

I guess the bottom line is that the Krell gear is much the better sounding. I just want my cake, my fork, and smooth top end extension.
 

RBFC

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Apr 20, 2010
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Here's another take: as we age, our "top-end extension" of our hearing diminishes. Gear which once sounded neutral can sound dark or closed-in, but it's not the gear. I had some similar thoughts about some components I've had, and I made a conscious effort to compare the sound of the playback to the spectrum of natural sound as I hear it. My Krell system more closely replicates that than gear I've had that "opens up" the top end (which is actually not natural).

Lee
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Jun 30, 2010
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Tim-Again, good questions and suggestions. I will try to address these in order:



I haven’t “proven” that one way or the other yet and I have received mixed messages from those who have owned or still own Krell gear.



This is strictly supposition on my part and I could damn well be wrong because I haven’t carried out the experiments you mentioned. The thin sound could all possibly be coming from the Phase Linear 400 Series 2 amps and I won’t know that unless I try all combinations. The Krell combo in comparison to the C2a/PL 400 combo is much different in sound quality. The C2a/PL 400 combo has good low bass, but from 80-160 Hz or so it doesn’t sound as linear as the Krell combo. The C2a/PL 400 combo sounds more open and extended at the opposite end of the frequency spectrum than the Krell combo, but the C2a/PL 400 combo sounds brash in comparison. Male singers sound thinner and their voices aren’t fleshed out like they are with the Krell gear. The Krell gear sounds much more real overall, it just doesn’t have the top end extension that I’m used to hearing. But it is smooth as butter.

I guess the bottom line is that the Krell gear is much the better sounding. I just want my cake, my fork, and smooth top end extension.

I get that. Nothing disturbs me quicker than glaring (brash) upper mids. So if what you want is the cake...and the fork...and the big, solid, controlled bass...and smooth, linear mids, and a high end that extends to the limits of those aluminum tweeters with their taming silk surrounds....how come you're thinking about tubes again? That'll get you the creamy mids, maybe the extension (but not the transient response that makes it dance). The big, solid, controlled bass? No. And as you've already noticed, the impact, the tunefulness, the musicality (jeez I can't believe I said that...) of bass isn't down there where your powered subs play, it's in the lower mids and upper bass, where big SS iron rules.

Tim
 

JackD201

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Apr 20, 2010
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I can think of a number of tube amps that can make you jump out of your skin. Granted the Jadis Defy 7 hooked up to moderately sensitive speakers isn't one of them. 8 SET watts will get you jumpin' with 105dB horns with 15"short throw woofers in a TL or folded horn more than 150 SS watts that double everytime impedance is halved when strapped to a 83dB a power sucking vampire of a loudspeaker.

I'm just sayin' :)
 

DonH50

Member Sponsor & WBF Technical Expert
Jun 22, 2010
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...more than 150 SS watts that double everytime impedance is halved when strapped to a 83dB a power sucking vampire of a loudspeaker.

Hey, I resemble that remark!!! :D

Mark, rather than speculate on the "why", I'll just say I'm glad you got them back and running, now enjoy the tunes!
 

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