Latest krell saga

Phelonious Ponk

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Jun 30, 2010
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Tim-You make some good points. And it’s true that the C2a and the PL-400 Series 2 amps were and are a revelation. They are the reason I sold my Counterpoint SA-5.1 and my Jadis Defy 7 MKII. They simply sounded better in my system. It was a very humbling experience. So my thought process was that if I could pull that off with some cheap SS gear from yesteryear, what could I pull off with over $10K worth of SS gear (price when new)?

The ironic thing is that the SS gear from yesteryear works great and my noise floor has never been lower. The hum from my KSA-250 is no longer setting the noise floor of my system. I think if one was to go back and read all of the original posts I made about the Krell gear, the hum was an issue from the beginning. I mitigated it somewhat with the PC from Krell, and the level of hum changes from time to time which I find odd and irritating.

I also don’t think I ever said the Krell gear blew away my C2a or PL amps or anything close to that. The PL amps sound “lighter” than the KSA-250, but not in the white and bright sense. The KSA-250 is balanced on the dark side which tends to emphasize its bottom end and mid bass capabilities. When you shell out a bunch of money, send gear off to its maker to be repaired and recapped, you want it to be better than what you have. That was the whole point. The reality just doesn’t always play along with your expectations if you are honest with yourself. The flip side of that is when you can’t believe how something sounds so damn good that you bought for next to nothing and you think you must be deluding yourself.

I don't think you're deluding yourself. I think you've discovered how good the upper ranges of midfi/lower ranges of high-end can be -- It's a really nice place where most everything is compatible with everything else, and most electronics are quiet, neutral and powerful enough for the vast majority of speakers; a place where equipment is designed to serve its purpose without the fuss and quirkiness that is so common in "high end." You can get it different, if you really want it, but it doesn't really get better.

You've accused me of being anti-audiophile; I'm not. But I am very skeptical of the high end, and you find yourself at the red hot center of why.

In the immortal words of silly pop songs, "Don't worry, be happy."

Tim
 

mep

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Apr 20, 2010
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I'll state what otherwise is the obvious: this hobby/passion is supposed to be fun. It sounds to me (no pun intended) like you're going through a short window of time where you're not having as much fun as you are deserving. I hope you find your way back to not having anguish over your gear and instead sitting in the sweet spot enjoying some great tunes with a big fat smile on your face and your toes tapping.

Ron-If I could just get over my own audiophile snobbishness, I'm having fun right now even though I have some decisions to make and money to spend on Krell gear that I have already spent time and money on. As I said earlier, I stayed up until 2:00 AM last night and I had to force myself to go to bed. So I was enjoying myself and I probably had a stupid grin on my face as I was tapping my toes. I have been struggling with the KSA-250 hum issue and last night finding out the KBL was now broken was the icing on the audiophile cake. Even though the Krell gear let me down, it was no real sense of let down when I went to my bench last night and got the system up and running (quietly). I already knew how high that bar was.
 

mep

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RogerD

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Roger-I read the thread and it was interesting and sounded familiar-specially the part about how he liked the sound except for the hum. And yeah, there is a big risk that I could send the amp back to Krell and they would tell me there isn't a damn thing wrong with it.

Mark,

The issue was there was DC present on the line for that gentleman. If that's just part of the problem in your case,that's a whole different issue.
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Jun 30, 2010
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So I was enjoying myself and I probably had a stupid grin on my face

When its coming from a pair of PLs and a Yammy preamp that cost a fraction of all the equipment you've tried and failed to beat it with, that's a damn smart grin. You know what you know about your big Def Techs and a whole lot of speakers that cost a whole lot more money? You're trying real hard to learn that same lesson about amplification. Grin and bear it, Mark.

Tim
 

microstrip

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Mep,

IMHO, you are being a victim of owning equipment for which you can not get adequate local support. The problems you refer need a local diagnostic and may be are very simple to solve by someone with the proper knowledge. A good electrical engineer with audio and grounding practice knowledge would not weigh a lot more than the Krell amplifier and would possibly solve all your problems in place! :)
 

LL21

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Dec 26, 2010
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I have had my share of disappointing high-end crackles, pops and repairs with older SOTA equipment. Here is the only i can say...when SOTA equipment actually does work...you realize why it is SOTA. i totally sympathize with the buzz, though. Not good at all. In the end after months of repairs from various guys, i stuck with my convinctions about the brand, i went with another second-hand piece from same manufacturer and have been rewarded well. And the much older SOTA piece has now [finally] been fully repaired after the 5th attempt...and traded in to my local dealer at a fair price...something that less than SOTA equipment usually does not get after many, many years of use.

that said, if you've already got the 'til 2'am' thing going...isn't that what we're all after in the first place? Buy more music! I am!!!
 

mep

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I think I will stick with everyone's theory that I must have some sort of grounding/AC problem and sell my KSA-250 as "recently serviced, works perfect."
 

RogerD

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May 23, 2010
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I think I will stick with everyone's theory that I must have some sort of grounding/AC problem and sell my KSA-250 as "recently serviced, works perfect."

Mark,

I "move on" all the time,just part of this hobby. Krell updated the amp and gave it their blessing....sounds good to me.
 

MylesBAstor

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Apr 20, 2010
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I think I will stick with everyone's theory that I must have some sort of grounding/AC problem and sell my KSA-250 as "recently serviced, works perfect."

Makes you wonder if the previous owner had the same issues :( 250 did have its growing pains being the first wave soldered Krell amp.
 

mep

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I have no idea if the previous owner had issues or not. It was DOA when I got it and of course he swore it was fine when it left. But one thing that is a fact is that I sent the KSA-250 back to Krell to be serviced and recapped and I have the bill to prove it. Ray also assured me the KSA-250 was dead quiet when it was there.
 

fas42

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Jan 8, 2011
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What’s next? Hell, I don’t know. Anybody got some *B* team gear sitting on the bench that you think I should hear? I might just go crazy and go back to tubes.
I've got some *D* team stuff that works quite nicely ... :b:b

Sorry to hear of your problems: possibly part of the issue is gear which has high temperature cycling. They run hot, which means everytime you switch off everything cools down. Then, next day, they start cooking again: hot, cold, hot, cold ... . Electronic components and circuits hate this sort of stuff, it wears them out: many places run critical equipment 24/7. If you can handle the power cost, it may be the best way to go ...

Frank
 

mep

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Saturday (3/31/12), I decided to put the KBL and KSA-250 back into the system and confirm whether or not the KBL really wasn’t passing bass signals through either of the main set of outputs. I also rerouted the speaker cable for the right channel to get it away from a power cord. The short and sweet answer is that the KBL is working correctly and the hum from the KSA-250 appears to be induced hum. I forgot to mention that I also changed the grounding scheme for the KBL which may have also impacted the KSA-250. I have no answers for what I heard previously with the KBL and why it is fine now.

Honestly, it was a sonic relief to get back to the all Krell system. In terms of elegance and refinement, there is no comparison to the older and much cheaper SS electronics I was using. No comparison in mid-bass energy either. However, even though the cheap SS electronics are much brasher sounding, they do expose the inherent darkness of the Krell sound. There has to be a balance here somewhere between dark and too much light and right now, I’m one or the other.

My Krell pieces remind me of an old blue-blood from New England all prim and proper and buttoned down sipping a cognac. My Yamaha C2a paired with a pair of Phase Linear 400 Series 2 amps reminds me of a hillbilly slurping moonshine and screaming “Ya-Hoo!!” And I am exaggerating a little bit.

As Steve likes to say, changing out gear doesn’t necessarily mean your system sounds better, it may just sound different. This is so true. The first night when I put the old SS gear back in, I did stay up until the wee hours of the morning because I was hearing a “new” system with much more frequency extension on top. It was a very interesting contrast, but one that doesn’t hold up as being pleasurable over the long-run. For a few hours and a few beers that night, it was fun and I enjoyed it. Even though the top end on the SS gear is a little brash sounding, the mere fact that the extension was there in comparison to the more closed-in sound of the Krell was good to hear for a change. The correct balance is somewhere in between.

The Krell sound that I have is very smooth, refined, deep, powerful, elegant, and pleasing to the ear (and I will sell it to you). If not for comparison with reality or compared with another piece of gear that is balanced across the audio band, one might not realize that the high frequencies are closed in which leads to the ‘dark’ sound that Krell gear has been branded as having. To be fair, Krell is not the only high-end electronics firm which has been branded as sounding dark. Dark sells and I understand why even if I don’t find that sound to be neutral and therefore correct over the long haul.

I think this is the end of the line for me with the Krell gear and maybe SS in general. Tubes like all things analog are a pain in the butt, but they still have that breath of life that seems to elude lots of SS gear despite measurements that tell you how wonderful it should sound.

Everything in this crazy hobby is a compromise-you simply can’t have it all. You have to pick and choose your poisons. Tube amps are never going to have the bass that SS amps do. And even if your main speakers have powered subwoofers built in and you don’t think the quality of the amps that drive your speakers affects the bass, I think you are wrong. If I was to generalize, I would say that really good SS commits more errors of omission and tubes have more errors of commission.

If I do flip back over to tubes, I will miss the bottom octave superiority of SS amps. Tubes simply can’t match that. But, I will wallow in everything else that tubes do great (in great tube products), and that is breathing more live into the illusion we are all trying to capture. I might even see if I can find some moonshine and scream “Ya-Hoo!!”
 

RogerD

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May 23, 2010
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Well that is good in a way,if you can live with the "dark" sound as you call it. I have found that cables can have a significant impact on the highs in a system. I tried some Gepco XB201 DBM cable and it is very neutral I think,but in my system it had a positive impact on the high frequency. The Gepco are fairly cheap at .88 cents a foot but well made as it is used in the broadcast industry.
Anyway I can't get away from the tube quality atleast in a preamp, there's magic there that I hear,but I do like my SS monoblocks.
 

microstrip

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Mep,
Welcome back!
 

mep

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Thanks Francisco! There is still come clean-up involved though my friend.
 

LL21

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Great to hear you're back with your original reference all-Krell! And all's quiet except the music! As for 'dark', i owned the Antileon for years and could happily have lived with it, if i did not have to have it fixed (3x)...finally done!...but in meantime had a once-in a blue-moon chance to pick up a second-hand Colosseum.

I really enjoyed the Antileon and i think it seems like your Krell has a simlar sonic signature...great mids, tremendously powerful, taut bass, smooth...enjoy!!!
 

fas42

Addicted To Best
Jan 8, 2011
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Everything in this crazy hobby is a compromise-you simply can’t have it all.
Hoo boy! You're in the lovely, 95% there land, where everything you do has a subjectively dramatic impact. Unfortunately, this is a version of that infamous "Audio Hell", where it really does seem that no matter how you push and pull at various parts of the setup nothing will actually make it hang together in a completely satisfactory manner.

Which is where I come in. I have no trouble reaching that moonshine territory, and I know this is good! This is precisely where the real, heavy duty tweaking needs to get on board, for that last 5% of quality to be attained, and then you do have it all. Elegant, dark sound is another matter: I have minimal experience attempting to rescue that type of sound; there may be major engineering compromises in the setup which are more difficult to circumvent, to bring the sound to life.

In simple terms, the sound has to have the lifelike, raucous energy as core; it may be rough at the edges, quite irritating at times, even sound a bit cheap. In the beginning. Then the job is to eliminate the causes of that roughness, one by one, and finally the "good stuff" merges, slowly but surely ...

Frank
 

RogerD

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Sometimes after all that can be done,has been done,the sound is not what one expects it to be. That's always a tough call and I have had to deal with the problem myself. I'm more in the camp that the preamp makes or breaks a system in the extreme. I always thought that my mono blocks lacked punch in the bottom end and shimmer in the top end. What changed was when I added preamps that could drive the amplifiers with authority,increased headroom. YMMV
 

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