Latest krell saga

mep · Mar 23, 2012

I think I’m over my Krell *period.* I never was able to completely eliminate the hum from my KSA-250. It usually hovered around the *tolerable* level, but at times it really got on my nerves. I just hated the fact that my noise floor of my entire system was set by the KSA-250. That is not the way things are supposed to work. And then last night I noticed that neither of my subs was playing and hardly any bass was coming out of my main speakers. Yup, the Krell KBL preamp is dorked up again. I just had both of these pieces back at Krell to be repaired and recapped in October of 2011. The main reason I wanted to send the KBL back was the set of RCA main outs wouldn’t pass a signal through. And the main reason changed when the KBL quit working entirely. And now it just sort of works.

So last night I had to pull the Yamaha C2a out of retirement. While I was at it, I decided to grab my pair of Phase Linear 400 Series 2 amps and put them back into the system. Now I’m back to an ultra-low noise floor which is where I want to be. And yeah, the *darkness* of the Krell gear is fully exposed with this combo. I stayed up until 2:00 AM last night and I didn’t want to quit listening. I had to force myself to go to bed (Self, get your ass to bed!).

I guess I am going to pack up both pieces and go through the extreme hassle of shipping them back to Krell again so I can sell them. If I had a brain in my head I would be content with the great sound I have right now although the pedigree of my current preamp and amp surely doesn’t pass the audiophile sniff test and all noses would be pointed northward. I tell you what, this gear is one hell of a “B” team when it comes off the bench and joins the game. Call it synergy, serendipity, or ideally matched electrically. Whatever, it sounds really good and if you have read my posts over time, I have owned some fairly snotty gear through the years.

What’s next? Hell, I don’t know. Anybody got some *B* team gear sitting on the bench that you think I should hear? I might just go crazy and go back to tubes.

Steve Williams · Mar 23, 2012

Sorry to hear that Mark

rockitman · Mar 23, 2012

if you like SS, you will like Pass Labs. Demo's from reno hifi are a steal, imo and you can audition them.

mep · Mar 23, 2012

Christian-I just like what sounds good and I no longer suffer the delusion that only tubes can sound great. As for Pass Labs, I did own an X-250 and it wasn’t a love affair. I couldn’t get it out of my system quick enough. The newer series of Pass gear is supposed to sound better, but it sure is pricey.

rockitman · Mar 23, 2012

mep said:
Christian-I just like what sounds good and I no longer suffer the delusion that only tubes can sound great. As for Pass Labs, I did own an X-250 and it wasn’t a love affair. I couldn’t get it out of my system quick enough. The newer series of Pass gear is supposed to sound better, but it sure is pricey.

The Class A "XA" series are great sounding...

DaveyF · Mar 23, 2012

mep said:
What’s next? Hell, I don’t know. Anybody got some *B* team gear sitting on the bench that you think I should hear? I might just go crazy and go back to tubes.

Why does there have to be a what's next IF you are so content with what you have??
Mark, you seem to have an aversion to 'snotty' high end products and their owners, so why not be content to leave the system as it is and call it a day, or am I missing something here

Ronm1 · Mar 23, 2012

Good for you, MEP, though the Krell results are a bummer. I certainly can relate to the pain/bane of noise. It's certainly a pet peeve of mine and I would suspect just about everyone here. A smart judicious use of synergy can trump just throwing money at the problem quite often. IMHO, of course.

FrantzM · Mar 23, 2012

mep

Have you tried the C2 with the KSA-250?
Then the Phase Linear with the KBL?

That would allow you to pinpoint which is doing which, of whatever incompatibility.. AS far I remember the KSA-250 wasn't a noisy amplifier ... Krell in general are not noisy ... Call them "dark" or whatever... Fine.. Noisy from a Krell gear suggest suboptimal operation or some impedance matching problems ...
On a totally different front have you tried the Krell combo with other IC to see what is going on? The Transparent are IIRC "network" cables ...any non network cables in you stash?

mep · Mar 23, 2012

DaveyF said:
Why does there have to be a what's next IF you are so content with what you have??
Mark, you seem to have an aversion to 'snotty' high end products and their owners, so why not be content to leave the system as it is and call it a day, or am I missing something here

Yes Davey, as usual you are missing something. Your comment is way out of line. Because I don’t like your choice of gear doesn’t mean I don’t like high-end gear and appreciate audiophiles. You have me confused with somebody else. As a former owner of the ARC D-70 MKII and the CAT Signature MKII preamp, you can’t seem to get past the fact that I moved on from that gear and don’t hold it in the same esteem you do. Get over it.

mep · Mar 23, 2012

Frantz-I haven’t tried the C2a with the KSA-250. The noise/hum from the KSA-250 is coming from the 83 lb power transformer. I’m using the power cord that Krell sent me for the KSA-250. I tried a PS Audio PC and it just made the hum worse. I don’t think it matters what preamp I put in front of the KSA-250. The KSA-250 sounds really good, I’ve just decided that even though I have minimized the hum I no longer find it tolerable. And I did have a dedicated 20A circuit installed just for the KSA-250.

There is no doubt the KBL is broken. I am getting zero output through the main RCA jacks and no bottom end out of the balanced outputs. Strange, and I’m sure both of these issues are related. Since the main out RCA jacks are feeding my subs which are crossed over quite low and I’m getting no bass output and the balanced connections going to my main speakers aren’t putting out any bass, I doubt that is a coincidence. And I have tried different combos of ICs with the Krell gear and none of it mattered.

As for my MIT network cables, they sound just dandy with my antique PL 400 Series 2 amps. These amps are super quiet. These amps also have speed and air which the mighty KSA-250 lacks. I know why people have labeled the older Krell gear as sounding “dark.” I professed ignorance when I asked people to elucidate their reasons for calling it dark because I wanted to hear what people had to say.

We all can pretty much get used to the sound of components in our systems. The truth is that the KSA-250 has an enormous bottom end and mid-bass punch and when you combine that with a slightly closed-in top, you have a recipe for darkness. If this was all you were exposed to, you would think all was right in the world. It’s not like you don’t hear cymbals, bells, and any other high frequency tones. You just don’t hear all of what is there to be heard IMO.

DaveyF · Mar 23, 2012

mep said:
Yes Davey, as usual you are missing something. Your comment is way out of line. Because I don’t like your choice of gear doesn’t mean I don’t like high-end gear and appreciate audiophiles. You have me confused with somebody else. As a former owner of the ARC D-70 MKII and the CAT Signature MKII preamp, you can’t seem to get past the fact that I moved on from that gear and don’t hold it in the same esteem you do. Get over it.

Mark, I'm not missing anything here, you're the one that is, as usual

Phelonious Ponk · Mar 23, 2012

I was confused when you went through all of this in the first place, Mark. Your move to the Yamaha and the PLs read like a revelation -- as if the clouds had parted and the clear light of fidelity had come streaming into your dark room.

Then you almost immediately went shopping to replace the light.

I know I'm probably the last guy here you'll take advice from, but mine is don't do anything for a year. Then if you get the itch, don't buy anything that doesn't come with a liberal return policy and doesn't prove itself to out-perform the Yammy and PLs in a side-by-side comparison.

And I'd sure think about trying to do it blind. No, it's not easy, but it's not nearly as much trouble as you've gone through with the Krells. Hell, you could probably hire someone to come in and set it up for you for less.

I won't guess at your motivations, but clearly you wanted some really big iron really badly, and If I remember correctly, you had yourself convinced that Krell iron was absolutely superior to the Yammy/PL combo....until the noise drove you nuts, you put the old stuff back in, and now...sounds like you're not at all sure.

Tim

RBFC · Mar 23, 2012

Mark,

Did you float the ground on the KSA-250 with a cheater plug?

Lee

RogerD · Mar 23, 2012

All you can do is compare and then live with you're choice for a while. I don't care what name is on the gear,if it sounds good to you that's all that matters. I have my big class A tube amps sitting,waiting for funds to be recapped. I know their going to be quieter than my SS amps, but I'm in no hurry, I guess that's a good place to be. I have just become satisfied as I happily can live with what I have now.

mep · Mar 23, 2012

RBFC said:
Mark,

Did you float the ground on the KSA-250 with a cheater plug?

Lee

Yep, and the hum got worse.

RogerD · Mar 23, 2012

mep said:
Yep, and the hum got worse.

Mark,

If the Krell transformer is that noisy,they should have a reputation for that,or that particular transformer is faulty.Have you measured your voltage level at the wall? Do you use a power conditioner? My voltage runs at 126.7 here and I wonder sometimes if my toroidal amplifiers might like 117 voltage better.

mep · Mar 23, 2012

Phelonious Ponk said:
I was confused when you went through all of this in the first place, Mark. Your move to the Yamaha and the PLs read like a revelation -- as if the clouds had parted and the clear light of fidelity had come streaming into your dark room.

Then you almost immediately went shopping to replace the light.

I know I'm probably the last guy here you'll take advice from, but mine is don't do anything for a year. Then if you get the itch, don't buy anything that doesn't come with a liberal return policy and doesn't prove itself to out-perform the Yammy and PLs in a side-by-side comparison.

And I'd sure think about trying to do it blind. No, it's not easy, but it's not nearly as much trouble as you've gone through with the Krells. Hell, you could probably hire someone to come in and set it up for you for less.

I won't guess at your motivations, but clearly you wanted some really big iron really badly, and If I remember correctly, you had yourself convinced that Krell iron was absolutely superior to the Yammy/PL combo....until the noise drove you nuts, you put the old stuff back in, and now...sounds like you're not at all sure.

Tim

Tim-You make some good points. And it’s true that the C2a and the PL-400 Series 2 amps were and are a revelation. They are the reason I sold my Counterpoint SA-5.1 and my Jadis Defy 7 MKII. They simply sounded better in my system. It was a very humbling experience. So my thought process was that if I could pull that off with some cheap SS gear from yesteryear, what could I pull off with over $10K worth of SS gear (price when new)?

The ironic thing is that the SS gear from yesteryear works great and my noise floor has never been lower. The hum from my KSA-250 is no longer setting the noise floor of my system. I think if one was to go back and read all of the original posts I made about the Krell gear, the hum was an issue from the beginning. I mitigated it somewhat with the PC from Krell, and the level of hum changes from time to time which I find odd and irritating.

I also don’t think I ever said the Krell gear blew away my C2a or PL amps or anything close to that. The PL amps sound “lighter” than the KSA-250, but not in the white and bright sense. The KSA-250 is balanced on the dark side which tends to emphasize its bottom end and mid bass capabilities. When you shell out a bunch of money, send gear off to its maker to be repaired and recapped, you want it to be better than what you have. That was the whole point. The reality just doesn’t always play along with your expectations if you are honest with yourself. The flip side of that is when you can’t believe how something sounds so damn good that you bought for next to nothing and you think you must be deluding yourself.

Ron Party · Mar 23, 2012

I'll state what otherwise is the obvious: this hobby/passion is supposed to be fun. It sounds to me (no pun intended) like you're going through a short window of time where you're not having as much fun as you are deserving. I hope you find your way back to not having anguish over your gear and instead sitting in the sweet spot enjoying some great tunes with a big fat smile on your face and your toes tapping.

mep · Mar 23, 2012

RogerD said:
Mark,

If the Krell transformer is that noisy,they should have a reputation for that,or that particular transformer is faulty.Have you measured your voltage level at the wall? Do you use a power conditioner? My voltage runs at 126.7 here and I wonder sometimes if my toroidal amplifiers might like 117 voltage better.

Roger-I have asked other people on this forum who owned KSA-250s if hum/noise was an issue for them and those that responded said no. Ray from Krell tells me it was quiet as a church mouse there. Maybe the damn thing is working perfect and it just doesn’t like my house. Maybe I could just sell it and assume it will be perfect for its new owner as is (that would be great). As for my voltage, I have measured it and the answer is 121.8v. I don’t have a power conditioner. You would need a real beefy one to stick in front of the Krell.

RogerD · Mar 23, 2012

mep said:
Roger-I have asked other people on this forum who owned KSA-250s if hum/noise was an issue for them and those that responded said no. Ray from Krell tells me it was quiet as a church mouse there. Maybe the damn thing is working perfect and it just doesn’t like my house. Maybe I could just sell it and assume it will be perfect for its new owner as is (that would be great). As for my voltage, I have measured it and the answer is 121.8v. I don’t have a power conditioner. You would need a real beefy one to stick in front of the Krell.

Mark,

I did a quick search and found this on Gon. It's not the same Krell amp but it might help.

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1164905542&openflup&14&4#14

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