Wilson Alexandria Speakers...Why not a bi-amp solution from Wilson for this chassis?

DonH50

Member Sponsor & WBF Technical Expert
Jun 22, 2010
3,947
306
1,670
Monument, CO
No knowledge of the Wilson crossover, but I can well imagine the idea of taking a carefully-designed and optimized crossover and handing it over to the audiophile masses, most of whom do not understand the engineering design and trades that go into a crossover, would scare me. Especially for such a high-end speaker system; who wants a bunch of people hearing and not liking an expensive system due to the owner's poor crossover design? There's a lot more to it than just setting the slope and the frequency...
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
14,411
2,509
1,448
No knowledge of the Wilson crossover, but I can well imagine the idea of taking a carefully-designed and optimized crossover and handing it over to the audiophile masses, most of whom do not understand the engineering design and trades that go into a crossover, would scare me. Especially for such a high-end speaker system; who wants a bunch of people hearing and not liking an expensive system due to the owner's poor crossover design? There's a lot more to it than just setting the slope and the frequency...

If you read the original X1/Grand Slamm review by Martin Colloms (Stereophile 1994...i have it), he states exactly that. David Wilson apparently did not want to encourage second guessing on the way he designed the X1 to be amplified and set up...that is specifically why every X-series gets professional installation by a Wilson-authorized and Wilson-trained dealer. The guys who set up mine took 8 hours, re-soldered the tweeters twice using different resistors to suit the proper tweeter dispersion in my room. They measured every resistor and moved the units around by incremental fractions to get it just right.
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,806
4,698
2,790
Portugal
No comment on Wilson but many great speaker designers - Gryphon, Rockport, Vandersteen, YG Accoustic and Vivid are now promoting semi-active and fully active speaker designs with external or built-in digital cross-over boxes.
This article is very interesting.

http://www.ultraaudio.com/index.php...payor-laurence-dickie-and-richard-vandersteen

Andy Payor addresses the big problems, IMHO.

Payor: I find that one real challenge is educating the customer that, in a truly high-end system, it is unwise to use radically dissimilar amplifier topologies in a multi-amplified system. In an age where relatively inexpensive class-D amplification is often used in powered subwoofers, it’s sometimes difficult to stress enough the importance of having system amplifiers with the same transfer function if high fidelity is actually the objective. The notion that one can use a 15W single-ended triode for the main amplifier (because it doesn’t have to contend with making bass) coupled to a 1000W class-D amplifier for the bass may sound like the best of both worlds, but in practice it doesn’t work very well. This approach has been responsible for robbing the true performance potential of many a biamped system, as have poor setup and integration of levels within the system.

Most brands do not want to risk their great products to be systematically poorly used. IMHO for the typical high-end consumer bi-amping will just mean more chances to go wrong. :(
 

MHT

New Member
Aug 22, 2017
16
0
0
Yes, but he's clearly implying that using the same amplifiers fixes this problem. It also helps if the external digital cross-over if built by the speaker manufacturer.
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,806
4,698
2,790
Portugal

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,806
4,698
2,790
Portugal
Yes, but he's clearly implying that using the same amplifiers fixes this problem. It also helps if the external digital cross-over if built by the speaker manufacturer.

But then the more often referred advantage of going by-amp - optimization of cost - vanishes ...

IMHO the best chance in by-amping is sticking with the speaker designer recommendation or then the old audiophile recipe - listening to candidates until you are pleased or too tired to go on trying ...
 

MHT

New Member
Aug 22, 2017
16
0
0
Of course Mr Harley's assertion is time sensitive. It's just an indication of what multi-amped systems are capable of.
Everybody has their predilections based on brand history, budget etc.
4-5 designers from prominent speaker manufacturers extolling the benefits of multi-amped systems should not be ignored.
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,806
4,698
2,790
Portugal
(...) 4-5 designers from prominent speaker manufacturers extolling the benefits of multi-amped systems should not be ignored.

Surely - I remember we had several threads in the past in WBF addressing this very interesting interview - if interested google our threads on "Active speakers" and the "Magico Ultimate 3".
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,806
4,698
2,790
Portugal

MHT

New Member
Aug 22, 2017
16
0
0
Thanks. I'm happy to be a part of super interesting conversations about high-end audio!!
 

ddk

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2013
6,261
4,040
995
Utah
This is something that I've always said for years on this forum and to my clients, hence my distrust of any semi-active design including active subs and specially any speaker with digital crossovers. IME the only way to blend these speakers is to either use a similar amp to the one in the active section or to use cables with strong coloration which some seem her seem to like anyway, otherwise IME willy-nilly mixing of electronics doesn't yield acceptable results. I would say that Wilson is saving the consumers from themselves by not allowing bi-amping on his speakers.

david

But we do have have different standards and tolerance so YMMV :).

Andy Payor addresses the big problems, IMHO.

Payor: I find that one real challenge is educating the customer that, in a truly high-end system, it is unwise to use radically dissimilar amplifier topologies in a multi-amplified system. In an age where relatively inexpensive class-D amplification is often used in powered subwoofers, it’s sometimes difficult to stress enough the importance of having system amplifiers with the same transfer function if high fidelity is actually the objective. The notion that one can use a 15W single-ended triode for the main amplifier (because it doesn’t have to contend with making bass) coupled to a 1000W class-D amplifier for the bass may sound like the best of both worlds, but in practice it doesn’t work very well. This approach has been responsible for robbing the true performance potential of many a biamped system, as have poor setup and integration of levels within the system.

Most brands do not want to risk their great products to be systematically poorly used. IMHO for the typical high-end consumer bi-amping will just mean more chances to go wrong. :(
 

bobme

New Member
Jul 22, 2018
3
0
0
Well get a pair of JL Audio Gotham subs and you'll never look back :)

which tap do you use for the ML3

New to this thread but not new to audio. Fascinating thread. The idea that resonates with me is that of using powered subwoofers along with Wilson Audio MAXX speakers in order to enable the use of low power amps like SET amps for the MAXXen and to thereby benefit from their well known characteristic. Seems heretical, and at the same time worth trying :)

Another dopey idea: use a pre-amplifier with tone controls. Now, before anybody throws tomatoes at me ... the goal here would be to punch up the bass a bit at low listening levels. Sure, flat components have been the standard at the high end for many years and tone controls have gone by the wayside but they served a purpose. Our ears are not linear. So the essence of my suggestion is to use the suggested 32WPC or less, and drive that (those) with a vintage pre-amp with tone controls. Thoughts?
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
14,411
2,509
1,448
New to this thread but not new to audio. Fascinating thread. The idea that resonates with me is that of using powered subwoofers along with Wilson Audio MAXX speakers in order to enable the use of low power amps like SET amps for the MAXXen and to thereby benefit from their well known characteristic. Seems heretical, and at the same time worth trying :)

Another dopey idea: use a pre-amplifier with tone controls. Now, before anybody throws tomatoes at me ... the goal here would be to punch up the bass a bit at low listening levels. Sure, flat components have been the standard at the high end for many years and tone controls have gone by the wayside but they served a purpose. Our ears are not linear. So the essence of my suggestion is to use the suggested 32WPC or less, and drive that (those) with a vintage pre-amp with tone controls. Thoughts?

Lets say i would venture a guess there is more room for error than for right in this. The Maxx is a tougher load than some of the other big Wilsons...so you will need to be very careful about what amp you choose to use. Steve is using the Lamm ML3s but those things are exceedingly powerful and belie the 32-watt rating. As for tone controls, it can be done, but it means another thing in the way of the signal...and in my own limited experience, i no longer felt the need even at super-low listening levels (ie, literally 1 on the CJ preamp)...but that was not about tone control...it was about lowering the noise floor as dramatically as possible so that you can hear everything evenly balanced even at lower levels. BTW, this is where a great sub makes a huge difference. Set up with the Velodyne DD18+, i never feel the need late at night to crank to get a balance chest thump in the bass. Priceless.

I am told the FMA268C is a form of tone control...a detailed, full-spectrum control...so the high end definitely caters for it. But I have never felt the need once the noise floor started to drop, the sub was dialed in, and the balance of the system remained steady at low and high volumes. My two cents.
 

Jim Smith

Industry Expert
Dec 14, 2012
203
177
948
79
IME, to avoid destroying coherence when bi-amping full-range speakers, the amps must be the same, top & bottom. Even so, what electronic xover is currently available that won't negatively intrude on the sound?
 

bobme

New Member
Jul 22, 2018
3
0
0
Lets say i would venture a guess there is more room for error than for right in this. The Maxx is a tougher load than some of the other big Wilsons...so you will need to be very careful about what amp you choose to use. Steve is using the Lamm ML3s but those things are exceedingly powerful and belie the 32-watt rating. As for tone controls, it can be done, but it means another thing in the way of the signal...and in my own limited experience, i no longer felt the need even at super-low listening levels (ie, literally 1 on the CJ preamp)...but that was not about tone control...it was about lowering the noise floor as dramatically as possible so that you can hear everything evenly balanced even at lower levels. BTW, this is where a great sub makes a huge difference. Set up with the Velodyne DD18+, i never feel the need late at night to crank to get a balance chest thump in the bass. Priceless.

I am told the FMA268C is a form of tone control...a detailed, full-spectrum control...so the high end definitely caters for it. But I have never felt the need once the noise floor started to drop, the sub was dialed in, and the balance of the system remained steady at low and high volumes. My two cents.

Very cool thanks! The MAXX 3 is not as heinous as the MAXX 1 or 2 in terms of the impedance spectrum. They only dip down to a minimum value of 3.4 ohms rather than 2.25 ohms for the MAXX 2.

I assume you feed the unadulterated signal to your X1 and a separate output from your pre to the Velodyne?

Cheers.
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing