No Free Lunch

mep

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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I made the switch from an all tube system to a mostly SS system over 6 months ago. The only tubes remaining in my system are my Ampex 350s which are only used when I play back R2R tapes. As most of you are aware, I’m using all Krell electronics for phono, preamp, and power amp (KPE Reference phono stage, KBL preamp, and KSA-250 amp). I sent both the KBL and the KSA-250 back to Krell to be repaired and recapped and received them back in October 2011.

What I have gained in my switch from tubes to SS is less noise, more power, and much greater control and extension in the bottom two octaves. These are all highly desirable traits for any stereo system. The question is, what did I give up? As we all know, there are always tradeoffs in this hobby of ours and nothing comes “free.” Tubes have a certain gestalt and magic in the vital midrange and I find that somewhat lacking with my current electronics. Tubes seem to convey a sense of liveness in the midrange that is somewhat lacking with my current electronics. I don’t want to say the SS electronics sound *dead* by comparison, but maybe the patient is somewhat green around the gills.

And I say this as someone who would love to have it all, but I don’t think that is possible. Tube amps are pretty damn quiet, but they aren’t the last word in bass extension and control. Tube preamps can be very quiet until the tubes start going south which can be when the wind blows. Tube phono stages are another bag of worms and you can’t really use low output cartridges with them unless there are SUTs or FETs in front of the tubes. But, on a day when the moon, stars, and planets are all in alignment and hum and noise seems to have disappeared for the here and now, they sure can sound magical.

I wish I could do some type of surgical audio graft and have the best of both worlds. Some people thought that hybrid amps would be that graft, but I don’t think it has proven to be so. You would be hard-pressed though to find either a modern tube line stage or power amp that didn’t have SS devices driving the input tubes and/or power output tubes. Both VTL and ARC gear has mucho SS in the signal path of their tube gear. So even die-hard tube guys who would be sooner be caught cheating on their wives with the bearded lady from the freak show at the local state fair have to admit that they are most probably listening through SS before it hits their tubes.

It’s a conundrum said the King.
 

JackD201

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
12,316
1,426
1,820
Manila, Philippines
Hi Mark,

Yup no free lunches. I'm bi-amped so I can always go for old school romance with either of a pair of tubes on top and Class A/AB muscle down below or balls to the wall dynamics with the all hybrid set up. Integration requires about an hour or less of work at this point now that I know what I'm doing. It took a number of months of trial, error, measurement and luck to get to that point. Being able to tube roll the hybrids gives me some added wiggle room but I've settled for as linear, clean and fast as I have in my arsenal which are the TFK CCa Redtips. On the tube side, the ML1.1s just don't have the jump of the hybrids but it does do that surreal space thing in spades. All in all however, while I find this configuration highly pleasurable, I find it prettifies too much when I'm not in the mood for pretty. LOL. Oh boy what am I typing?!!!!!! LOL

So yeah, no free lunches.
 

fas42

Addicted To Best
Jan 8, 2011
3,973
3
0
NSW Australia
I knew there was a reason that I didn't go to live orchestral performances any more: they don't sound pretty enough. This real sound thing ain't what it's cracked up to be: just too intense, dynamic, in your face -- just not enough luxurious "niceness" quotient to pass muster. It's about time they created a separate, soundproof and treated listening room at concert venues with a microphone feed from the unpleasant real thing, into some tasty tubes and the right speakers -- just for the discerning audiophiles who know what good sound is really all about ...

Frank
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Tom

I agree,a tone control of sorts or as Ron Party says,"pick your flavor"

Mark I know exactly what you mean because I did it opposite your way My last SS system was all Krell (3 Kpf 750mcx amps,KRC-HR, MD10 transport with Reference 64 Dac and ultimately a Kps25sc). Prior to those components I also had several KSA series amps as well as Dan's Cast cables. There was no shortage of everything you describe with headroom to spare. Then I heard an all tube system so again I know everything you describe once again. A fact of life however is the midrange we all crave especially as we age.

Bottom line is "pick your flavor" but I really understand everything you say
 

treitz3

Super Moderator
Staff member
Dec 25, 2011
5,474
994
1,290
The tube lair in beautiful Rock Hill, SC
Finding the mix to what soothes one's musical [reproductive] soul is one of the great things about this hobby. Just enjoy the journey and embrace it with loving arms. Don't forget to enjoy the music along your path, that's what's really important. If it isn't?

Enjoy a live concert.
 

Wasatch

New Member
Feb 17, 2012
136
0
0
Layton, UT
Tubes rule!
 

DaveyF

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2010
6,129
181
458
La Jolla, Calif USA
Mark, you can go a long way IF you have a tube amp and a ss amp. IMO, the best of all worlds is a tube preamp and a ss amp and then like I do, the ability to swap out the ss amp with a tube amp:cool:.
It is interesting that you now are contemplating the difference between tubes and ss; IF I had to choose just one, it would be tubes...warts and all:(. Luckily, I don't.:D
 

DonH50

Member Sponsor & WBF Technical Expert
Jun 22, 2010
3,952
312
1,670
Monument, CO
That's what I have liked as well -- a tube preamp and SS power amp. If I had to pick tubes vs. SS for the entire chain, it would depend heavily on the speakers as for most of them SS will provide better drive. Tubes and horns is a good match, IMO. Tubes and Maggies OK if you can give up some bass and panel control. Tubes and big conventional speakers, not so much, and you need SS to drive most full-range ribbons or 'stats. At least IME.
 

RogerD

VIP/Donor
May 23, 2010
3,734
319
565
BiggestLittleCity
I have class A mono block tube amps and SS mono blocks. I never thought the SS would better the tube amps,but I was wrong. With my custom Ampex 350's they drive my SS amps to a place I never dreamed possible.

Maybe some day Mark you will find a way to run your 350's as a slave preamp.

You can have the best of both worlds. Most would say there must be a synergy here and I just smile.
 

flez007

Member Sponsor
Aug 31, 2010
2,915
36
435
Mexico City
I am exactly in the same situation...well. maybe a little more dramatic since I had a SET amp and tubes all over except for the phono preamp, now I do not have a single tubed unit except for my Havana DAC. I have been on and off with tube sound for several times now, and always enjoyed the pros and cons of each - while I do not know a lot about Krell, I am not sure if you can go with a tubed preamp in your case, but maybe a layer up and try a tubed DAC/phono/tape preamp to recover some of the trade-offs your mention.
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
14,421
2,513
1,448
Mark, you can go a long way IF you have a tube amp and a ss amp. IMO, the best of all worlds is a tube preamp and a ss amp and then like I do, the ability to swap out the ss amp with a tube amp:cool:.
It is interesting that you now are contemplating the difference between tubes and ss; IF I had to choose just one, it would be tubes...warts and all:(. Luckily, I don't.:D

+1 Davey, and on DonHo, and Roger as well. I run tube pre with Class A SS dual-mono amp. I first did this nearly 3-4 years ago, and found myself in the fortunate position of having the unexpected opportunity to upgrade both components...and did...to the latest reference versions of both products...so i remain tube pre and Class A SS dual mono.
 

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