Wilson and opinion on forums and blogs

amirm

Banned
Apr 2, 2010
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Seattle, WA
Interesting point of view: http://www.wilsonaudio.com/newsletter_pdf/Wilson_Newsletter_March-09sm.pdf. Bold section is mine. What say you?

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Today, the challenge to maintain a correct impression of Wilson Audio is more difficult than ever before. On the internet, and particularly in “forums” and “blogs” (“blog” is contraction of the term “Web log”), erroneous beliefs seem to spread virally. A rumor, false technical information, or misinformation about a specific company can proliferate within the web community like a pandemic. The internet is a virtual Petri dish; factoids spawn there like virulent masses of fungal threads.

Forums are slightly different than blogs. A journalist or someone else of note usually hosts a blog. The blog host is the primary contributor and moderator of the site. Blogs are therefore generally considered to be more credible.

Forums are more like audio chat rooms. Accordingly, the forum is more like the wild, wild, west. There is a strange zeitgeist within audiophile forums. An atmosphere of certainty pervades the discussions. There may be a forum moderator, but this person’s role is strictly janitorial; the content is driven entirely by those that post to the site. Nearly anything and everything goes. Some posters seem to be generating controversy for controversy’s sake or perhaps aim to generate meaningless contention and debate. It’s therefore difficult to see the practical purpose of forums since a large percentage of the information presented by posters is either tainted or downright fallacious. Forums function more as a strange, self-indulgent pastime rather than a venue for thoughtful dialog.

Forums also seem to attract a disproportionate number of what I call “fundamentalist audiophiles.” These audiophiles are blindly loyal to a specific product or a pet technology. I have seen some very strange—and equally bogus—ideas promoted by the rabidly devoted fundamentalists. Even stranger is the frequency with which these ideas are accepted as fact. Fundamentalist zeal can be contagious and convincing. Perhaps this is because their language is tinged with a proselytizing fervor, an unshakable certitude that seems always to accompany a fundamentalist’s blind faith, regardless of how wrong they are on their facts. So strongly have some of these false views been held that those who have them have not hesitated to dismiss firsthand observations in favor of general presumptions held by people like themselves. What motivates participants to defend their audio ideas with the kind of ardent fundamentalism one usually associates with religious cults or ultra-extreme political movements remains a mystery to me.

Unfortunately, once an idea, factual or fallacious, gains momentum on the internet, the truthfulness and veracity of these ideas are rarely questioned or challenged.

Both blogs and forums are topically driven, meaning they are divided along a particular subject or theme called a “thread.” Since these “conversations” are conducted in a virtual environment, the participants are physically isolated from one another. Anyone can join the virtual conversation by posting his comments to the blog or forum. He can, if he wishes, maintain his anonymity or make up a false identity. The poster can put on any persona that suits him; can essentially reinvent himself with whatever image he chooses to project. Therefore, any individual can say literally anything about anyone or anything without any fear of accountability.

The ease of creating false identities encourages “shill” posters. A shill is a forum participant who pretends to be one thing when he is in reality another. For example, a poster can pretend to be an enthusiastic customer of a specific brand of products when, in fact, he is employed by or is the owner of the very company he is promoting. It has become disturbingly common for companies to promote themselves by posing as a satisfied client.

To be fair, blogs, especially those hosted by a legitimate magazine and moderated by a responsible writer, can be excellent sources of news and information. Some of the better-run blogs do not tolerate senseless contention. The polemical posts that practically define audiophile forums are far less common in the best blogs. News can be disseminated with an efficiency and timeliness impossible to duplicate in any other medium. But even within some of these more equable blogs, the discussion can quickly devolve into a rancorous debate fueled by zealous product partisanship. A sort of virtual mob mentality displaces reasonable discourse; a group consolidates and viciously and mindlessly attacks an idea, technology or company. It is often difficult to grasp the thread of “logic” that interweaves these acrimonious diatribes.

Since forums and blogs have no real barrier of entry and are in effect free, it has become de rigueur for new companies to promote themselves, announce new products, and to engage in market-driven dialogue on these sites. Given that the general tone of audiophile forums is a dark shade of unrestrained outrageousness, some of the more platitudinous rhetoric typical of self-promotion goes less noticed. Here again, well-presented, but fallacious syllogisms are offered up as undisputed fact. The approach is effective because it leverages the power of the world-wide-web and enables a new company to spread information to a demographic that is ostensibly qualified.

Less understandable is the number of established manufacturers who regularly do battle in the forums. My experience is that this is a colossal waste of time. There is very little in the way of thoughtful discourse within forums. Moreover, fundamentalists are rarely converted. And ultimately, there is very little relationship between these conversations and actual commerce. Spending time in unwinnable mêlées, often against unknown or even illusory virtual foes, is time better used building relationships with actual, flesh and blood customers.
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Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
That has been on the Wilson site for quite a while now. My first Wilson thread here was

"You Either Love Wilson Audio Or You Don't"

Suffice it to say Wilson not infrequently is the brunt of all things bad in audio forums and it is the feeling of the company (rightly or wrongly) not to get involved in these forums. As a result the banter will often go on and the arguments begin.

I feel there is some truth to the part where comment is made about a shill being a pseudonym for someone employed by the company or the very owner of the company itself. To wit there were some accusations recently on other forums that the very thing was occurring with a prominent speaker manufacturer. In other cases at least here on our forum, our manufacturers are up front with our members (eg Angela, Atma-Sphere etc)

IMO that response was put up on the Wilson site as an explanation to all of the shortcomings made about Wilson on open forums.
 

amirm

Banned
Apr 2, 2010
15,813
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Seattle, WA
Much of what they say is common knowledge Steve. Of course there are shills. Of course there are arguments forever without data. All of that is true and known by everyone. But why go and write a memo on it and put it your web site and put down the millions of people who still come to forums to research and discuss products before buying it? Why not go and build bonds in these communities rather than throwing the baby out with the bath water? The notion that the only customers who matter are the ones that they meet in real life is very stale.

Let's put Wilson aside. All else being equal, would people buy more products from companies are who active in these forums or absent? Would a company not participating in forums know as much about the needs of the consumer than the ones who do?

For me the answers to above have been crystal clear. I learn a ton from interacting with our customers. I would have one fresh idea a month that I would put in the development plans while I was at Microsoft because of my personal interactions with people. We would change our strategy even based on feedback from community participation. Every person at Microsoft was encouraged to participate because of such benefits. To say that nothing good comes out of it is, is just incredible to me. Reading old-line thinking like that was a big turn off for me. It is like the executives I run into that "don't do email." Say what?
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
I see and understand your point.

Last year when you and I were involved at another forum, I did speak to one of the inside execs at Wilson headquarters regarding his coming on and doing an interview for Wilson Audio. He declined immediately saying that Wilson frowns on any participation in these forums

To be active in these forums in a proper way IMO is the correct thing for a manufacturer to do but there also seems to be a fine line that a manufacturer can take between suppying scientific answers vs outright .........;)

As an aside, you can rest assured that even though certain mfrs don't participate in these forums you can be 100% certain that daily monitoring of all of the forums and blogs goes on behind the scenes on a daily basis
 

JackD201

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Wilson may well be the best selling makers of high priced speakers. By high priced I'm talking about speaker companies whose least expensive floor standers begin at 5 figures. You know what they say about being lonely at the top.

Success makes you the number one target. I guess it's as simple as that. In a hobby where tastes are so divergent, it isn't surprising to find a whole lot of people that are disappointed when they finally get to hear for themselves what all the talk is about. The continued success however shows that there are very many that were not disappointed.

Those that don't like them thus call upon the "fashion victim" or worse, the "fanboy" card to put down those that do. Many popular brands suffer this cyclicly. Rolex is one and Jaguar is another.

I do find the memo rather petty. It's like the author just had to vent some bitterness. Mainly because it came off as a bit didactic but mostly just dismissive. I think they can well afford to ride above the noise and just lose the memo. It does not do justice to their actual status in the industry.

On the other hand, managing the company image in a forum looks like a full time job. I don't see how James Tanner of Bryston can manage really. Likewise I see Yoav Geva in constant debate with strangers over at avguide blogs. Doing battle in a forum is like shadow boxing. I can understand how it can feel like an utter waste of energy.

Having said all that, the memo still looks out of place. Silence is to me, a better option.
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Silence is to me, a better option.

I completely agree

Likewise I see Yoav Geva in constant debate with strangers over at avguide blogs.

I saw those too as well as some posts that followed indicating that one of the posters that was debating Yoav was also the owner of the company (under an alias) that Yoav competes with.
 

JackD201

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Manila, Philippines
Was that the 3-axis vs 4-axis debate? Hahahahaha!
 

vinylphilemag

WBF Founding Member
Apr 30, 2010
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www.vinylphilemag.com
To be active in these forums in a proper way IMO is the correct thing for a manufacturer to do but there also seems to be a fine line that a manufacturer can take between suppying scientific answers vs outright .........;)

I agree. Provided that the manufacturer is open about the participation (i.e., using their own names with their affiliation clearly spelled out in their signature), I think that manufacturer participation in forums should not only be welcomed but positively and actively encouraged.
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
I agree. Provided that the manufacturer is open about the participation (i.e., using their own names with their affiliation clearly spelled out in their signature), I think that manufacturer participation in forums should not only be welcomed but positively and actively encouraged.

If you look at The Goals Of What's Best Forum listed above you will see that this is our prime goal.
 

MylesBAstor

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
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