70's and early 80's Japanese Component: How good were they?

microstrip · Jan 18, 2013

FrantzM said:
Hi

There is discussion going on another thread about how good the Linn Sondek LP 12 was. It is a somewhat OT discussion since the thread in question is about the Vetere trend-setting arm (The trend it set? That tonearms will now cost upward of $20,000 routinely) There was also a mention of the Pink Triangle Turntable.

This reminded me of this forgotten thread . The Sondek was a decent table but now I can see it wasn't superior to the Japanese Turntables of the same era. Listening to a SP-10 MKII, I know now that a Linn Sondek LP-12 is not superior to a Technics SP-10 MKII, or a Nakamichi TT-1000 or the era plethora of competitive great designs from Sony, Kenwood, Sansui, Micro Seiki . No Way, no How. Not even close. There I said it. Our belovd LP-12 was already surpassed by the Japanese TT s of the late 70's by several miles.
An SP-10 MK II remains as good as any TT out there and in the right plinth, a superior one fully competitive with the greatest TTs around and for a fraction of their prices. The Linn Sondek is not in that league ... To this day I regret geting a Pink Triangle over a Kenwood L-07.. I didn't even carre to audition the Kenwood .. Just went with the prejudicial assumption that it couldn't compare to the audiophile-approved Pink Triangle

You say it all - in the right plinth. The problem of most turntables was the plinth. I had a SP10 mk2 and IMHO it sounded poor in the standard plinth compared to the Linn. At same time I got a Thorens TD124 and had a great faith in it for the ET2. The plinth was just a rigid wood frame, nothing special. I swapped the ET2 between it and the Linn - although it seemed to be technical nonsense, it sounded much better in the Linn Sondek. People at Linn and many others understood the function of the turntable plinth and its contribution to the sound of the whole system. I sold the TD124 to a good friend, who built a state of the art plinth for it according the advice of an expert who wrote a book about the TD124 - sorry I do not remember his name - and has now an excellent sounding turntable.

AFAIR the first person to properly spot the weaknesses of the SP10 very much praised obsidian base was Peter Aczel in the 'The Audio Critic'. Mitch Cotter build a suspended turntable around the SP10 motor, but discarded the its top plate. Currently people have identified the critical aspects related to feedback and draining energy from the motor to the plinth, and we have great turntables built around the SP10.

We should not re-write history flow just because many years later we have such excellent turntables built around the SP10 or other vintage turntables, such as the old Garrards, Thorens or Lenco's using modern plinths usually costing much more than the motors and platters. In their time in standard form they had limitations, and other people were developing turntables that could overcome them.

TBone · Jan 22, 2013

I am reading through the Internet that the Yamaha TTS were also very good and in demand right now

I've had more than a few, I went from a cheap Yami belter to a bevy of direct drive turntables all of which were said to be "superior", but all of which sounded highly compromised to my ears. An early LP12 would easily better any direct drive turntable I've used.

And I also had a host of Japanese electronics, which all had the same opaque type sound to my ears.

Older direct drive turntables are making a comeback; and perhaps for good reason, however although I think many of 'em, like the Technics 1200, is a decent turntable and offer as much value as many of today's cheaper alternatives ... they are not nearly good enough to front a hi-end system (unless heavily modified).

I think most realize that the LP12 wasn't the only "best" turntable available then, but perhaps the pendulum has swung too far the other way; in which many consider older alternative Japanese direct drives better than they really were.

tb1

mep · Jan 22, 2013

The LP-12 was never the *best* of anything turntable related. It was and is all myth and upgrades out the ying-yang. It's nothing more than a glorified AR turntable rip-off right down to the felt mat that you need to hire a bicycle mechanic to keep the springs in the proper *bounce* (or is that a Linn trained technician?). If the LP-12 can beat out any Japanese DD tables, it would be the entry level models that never had high aspirations. If you own an LP-12, you need to buy a copy of the "How To Make Excuses For the Poor Performance of Your LP-12 to Your Audiophile Friends" book.

Anyone ever examined how much money would have been spent on an LP-12 if it was bought new when originally introduced and every *upgrade* from Linn was purchased and installed up to present times?

TBone · Jan 22, 2013

mep said:
The LP-12 was never the *best* of anything turntable related. It was and is all myth and upgrades out the ying-yang. It's nothing more than a glorified AR turntable rip-off right down to the felt mat that you need to hire a bicycle mechanic to keep the springs in the proper *bounce* (or is that a Linn trained technician?). If the LP-12 can beat out any Japanese DD tables, it would be the entry level models that never had high aspirations. If you own an LP-12, you need to buy a copy of the "How To Make Excuses For the Poor Performance of Your LP-12 to Your Audiophile Friends" book.

If you've read my posts concerning the LP12 here, you'd comprehend that I didn't think it "the best" even back in the day ... but certainly, it was far better than any whatever-level Japanese DD I'd used or heard to date. Just recently, a fellow audiophile posted cuts from his Goldmund Studietto and Micro Seiki DDX-1000, neither could be considered "entry level" direct drives ... and yet ... they failed to better his belt drive models ... a VPI, Oracle and even an Ariston. In fact, I thought the best sounding DD of the lot was a modified "entry-level" 1200.

And as far as proper "bounce" is concerned, that aspect of setup was not exclusive to only the LP12 ... it was just as important a setup parameter with many suspended models.

tb1

FrantzM · Jan 22, 2013

mep said:
The LP-12 was never the *best* of anything turntable related. It was and is all myth and upgrades out the ying-yang. It's nothing more than a glorified AR turntable rip-off right down to the felt mat that you need to hire a bicycle mechanic to keep the springs in the proper *bounce* (or is that a Linn trained technician?). If the LP-12 can beat out any Japanese DD tables, it would be the entry level models that never had high aspirations. If you own an LP-12, you need to buy a copy of the "How To Make Excuses For the Poor Performance of Your LP-12 to Your Audiophile Friends" book.

Anyone ever examined how much money would have been spent on an LP-12 if it was bought new when originally introduced and every *upgrade* from Linn was purchased and installed up to present times?

Thanks mep...

Refreshing as usual ...

TBone · Jan 22, 2013

Refreshing as usual

Really?

Perhaps I should have ignored all the MANY times I've read or heard the above comments concerning the LP12 ...

tb1

FrantzM · Jan 22, 2013

TBone said:
If you've read my posts concerning the LP12 here, you'd comprehend that I didn't think it "the best" even back in the day ... but certainly, it was far better than any whatever-level Japanese DD I'd used or heard to date. Just recently, a fellow audiophile posted cuts from his Goldmund Studietto and Micro Seiki DDX-1000, neither could be considered "entry level" direct drives ... and yet ... they failed to better his belt drive models ... a VPI, Oracle and even an Ariston. In fact, I thought the best sounding DD of the lot was a modified "entry-level" 1200.

And as far as proper "bounce" is concerned, that aspect of setup was not exclusive to only the LP12 ... it was just as important a setup parameter with many suspended models.

tb1

If I understand well you heard the cuts in full knowledge of what the TT were.. Am I correct in my assumption? I am also assuming that these cuts came from different TTs , each fiiten with different tonearms, cartridges and Phono amps? Am I correct? Then the differences you heard could be due to several factors not turntables related ...

mep · Jan 22, 2013

TBone said:
If you've read my posts concerning the LP12 here, you'd comprehend that I didn't think it "the best" even back in the day ... but certainly, it was far better than any whatever-level Japanese DD I'd used or heard to date. Just recently, a fellow audiophile posted cuts from his Goldmund Studietto and Micro Seiki DDX-1000, neither could be considered "entry level" direct drives ... and yet ... they failed to better his belt drive models ... a VPI, Oracle and even an Ariston. In fact, I thought the best sounding DD of the lot was a modified "entry-level" 1200.

I take all of the above with a grain of salt. Which VPI as there are a million of them with 10 million upgrades available? Oracle tables are lightweight sounding, but they look pretty cool. If this audiophile posted cuts from his different tables, did he use the same cartridge in every one of them and have the set up optimized? If not, it throws all of the *conclusions* out the window.

TBone said:
And as far as proper "bounce" is concerned, that aspect of setup was not exclusive to only the LP12 ... it was just as important a setup parameter with many suspended models.

tb1

With the AR table, you just used a wrench and adjusted the springs until the platter measured the same height from the plinth around the circumference of the platter. It was pretty simple and didn't require that you had a Linn cult member come to your house to monkey with your springs (or take your table to a Linn cult member). If you had and could read a six inch scale that was accurate and you had opposing thumbs, you could do it yourself very quickly without lighting any incense and having Hare Krishna chants playing in the background.

TBone · Jan 22, 2013

Oracle tables are lightweight sounding

Really, do tell ...

If not, it throws all of the *conclusions* out the window.

I've heard that bs countless times, but ...

Not at all, variables are a certainty with most auditions, obviously experienced 'philes can account for that aspect, but it would be far very short sighted to throw the entire exercise "out the window" based on variables alone.

tb1

TBone · Jan 22, 2013

If I understand well you heard the cuts in full knowledge of what the TT were.. Am I correct in my assumption? I am also assuming that these cuts came from different TTs , each fiiten with different tonearms, cartridges and Phono amps? Am I correct? Then the differences you heard could be due to several factors not turntables related ...

If all those other "factors" were to blame for my appraisal, then why the overall consistency, why did every belter better every DDs within this particular test?

Perhaps you think it was simply coincidence, or perhaps since the all the other factors, such as tonearms and carts, are primarily slaved to any turntable potential sound, perhaps it supplied some viable indication of each turntables quality ... despite not being absolute.

Certainly, if you are experienced, one can actually learn from such exercises, even with variables.

tb1

FrantzM · Jan 22, 2013

TBone said:
Really, do tell ...

I've heard that bs countless times, but ...

Not at all, variables are a certainty with most auditions, obviously experienced 'philes can account for that aspect, but it would be far very short sighted to throw the entire exercise "out the window" based on variables alone.

tb1

Correct me if I am wrong about my assumptions: The needle drops were conducted with:

Different turntables
With different tonearms
Different cartridges
Different Phono amps
likely different A to D converters

And your conclusions about the sonic merits of the turntables used in the needle drops are to be taken as valid? Really?!?

TBone · Jan 22, 2013

If I understand well you heard the cuts in full knowledge of what the TT were.

No, the cuts were supplied in random order irrespective of model. Despite the variables, we tried to guess the 'tables in question.

tb1

TBone · Jan 22, 2013

And you conclusions on the sonic merits of the turntables used in the needle drops are to be taken as valid?

I never said valid or absolute, I said educational, very different ...

tb1

mep · Jan 22, 2013

I said Oracle tables are lightweight sounding and you said:

TBone said:
Really, do tell ...

Do you really want to tell me that you have heard an Oracle table with deep, tight bass that extended into the bottom octave? Maybe it was the Oracle table that gave the ET-2 a reputation for not having deep bass. I love the looks of the Oracle, i was just never a fan of their sound. I would take an early SOTA Star Sapphire over the Oracle any day.

microstrip · Jan 22, 2013

mep said:
The LP-12 was never the *best* of anything turntable related. It was and is all myth and upgrades out the ying-yang. It's nothing more than a glorified AR turntable rip-off right down to the felt mat that you need to hire a bicycle mechanic to keep the springs in the proper *bounce* (or is that a Linn trained technician?). If the LP-12 can beat out any Japanese DD tables, it would be the entry level models that never had high aspirations. If you own an LP-12, you need to buy a copy of the "How To Make Excuses For the Poor Performance of Your LP-12 to Your Audiophile Friends" book.

Anyone ever examined how much money would have been spent on an LP-12 if it was bought new when originally introduced and every *upgrade* from Linn was purchased and installed up to present times?

Mep,

Unhappily most people from the other side of the Atlantic got a distorted view of the Linn Sondek. The Linn Sondek was not made for the DIY type of guy. The Linn Sondek was created to be sold by an authorized dealer or distributor, that was trained by Linn at the factory and who would mount it correctly in your room. The tuning was critical, but a properly set Linn Sondek was a marvelous vinyl playing machine, and I spent many hours listening to great systems using this turntable. And except for the recent (after 2000) upgrades, the old upgrades were very reasonable priced.
The myth of the de-tuning suspension only applied to earlier models - early they replaced the springs by high tensile springs (the black springs) that were quite stable.

The Linn Sondek was part of a system. Many people used it with wrong arms - the Rega and the SME V were some of the worst offenders. I was able to tune it in an acceptable way only because an expert in a well known London shop though me some of the critical aspects in great secrecy.

BTW1 Please tell me what DD in standard form sounded better than the Sondek in 1980. Perhaps I have tried it.

BTW2 If someone asks me to drive a Ferrari, I will politely say no. Happily for Ferrari, it would be bad advertising if someone was looking.

mep · Jan 22, 2013

microstrip said:
Mep,

Unhappily most people from the other side of the Atlantic got a distorted view of the Linn Sondek. The Linn Sondek was not made for the DIY type of guy. The Linn Sondek was created to be sold by an authorized dealer or distributor, that was trained by Linn at the factory and who would mount it correctly in your room. The tuning was critical, but a properly set Linn Sondek was a marvelous vinyl playing machine, and I spent many hours listening to great systems using this turntable. And except for the recent (after 2000) upgrades, the old upgrades were very reasonable priced.
The myth of the de-tuning suspension only applied to earlier models - early they replaced the springs by high tensile springs (the black springs) that were quite stable.

The Linn Sondek was part of a system. Many people used it with wrong arms - the Rega and the SME V were some of the worst offenders. I was able to tune it in an acceptable way only because an expert in a well known London shop though me some of the critical aspects in great secrecy.

BTW1 Please tell me what DD in standard form sounded better than the Sondek in 1980. Perhaps I have tried it.
BTW2 If someone asks me to drive a Ferrari, I will politely say no. Happily for Ferrari, it would be bad advertising if someone was looking.

Why should the knowledge of how to set up a turntable and keep it running correctly be taught in "great secrecy" or is this just a joke?

microstrip · Jan 22, 2013

mep said:
Why should the knowledge of how to set up a turntable and keep it running correctly be taught in "great secrecy" or is this just a joke?

It is a partial joke.

At that time you could not go in a shop and leave with a box with the Sondek under your arm - the dealer was supposed to install it in the client room. I think it is still the practice of Linn dealers.

XV-1 · Jan 23, 2013

FrantzM said:
Hi

There is discussion going on another thread about how good the Linn Sondek LP 12 was. It is a somewhat OT discussion since the thread in question is about the Vetere trend-setting arm (The trend it set? That tonearms will now cost upward of $20,000 routinely) There was also a mention of the Pink Triangle Turntable.

This reminded me of this forgotten thread . The Sondek was a decent table but now I can see it wasn't superior to the Japanese Turntables of the same era. Listening to a SP-10 MKII, I know now that a Linn Sondek LP-12 is not superior to a Technics SP-10 MKII, or a Nakamichi TT-1000 or the era plethora of competitive great designs from Sony, Kenwood, Sansui, Micro Seiki . No Way, no How. Not even close. There I said it. Our belovd LP-12 was already surpassed by the Japanese TT s of the late 70's by several miles.
An SP-10 MK II remains as good as any TT out there and in the right plinth, a superior one fully competitive with the greatest TTs around and for a fraction of their prices. The Linn Sondek is not in that league ... To this day I regret geting a Pink Triangle over a Kenwood L-07.. I didn't even carre to audition the Kenwood .. Just went with the prejudicial assumption that it couldn't compare to the audiophile-approved Pink Triangle

I have a fully loaded LP12 /Circus/Lingo with Naim ARO tonearm. This is fully loaded per 1991 spec. It sounds very good.

I bought a Pioneer Exclusive P3 several years ago. This is a 1979/80 table. My best HiFi buy, especially considering the price.

This is a superior sounding table to the LP12. It has better bass control with a larger soundstage and is fast - that is the notes start and stop in a faster manner. The LP12 sounds distant and small in scale in comparison.

I also bought P3's little brother P10 which is also very good, but a level below the great P3.

http://www.thevintageknob.org/pioneer-Exclusive_P3.html

You should try and pick up a L-07 - great table as well.

microstrip · Jan 23, 2013

turntable said:
I have a fully loaded LP12 /Circus/Lingo with Naim ARO tonearm. This is fully loaded per 1991 spec. It sounds very good.

I bought a Pioneer Exclusive P3 several years ago. This is a 1979/80 table. My best HiFi buy, especially considering the price.

Turntable,

You can consider yourself a happy man. I was also looking for a long time for a L-07. And the day I found one for a nice price the seller did not want to ship out of his country ...

This comment from the site you refer says it all:

The Exclusive P3 and P3a were produced in fairly large amounts for such a high-priced luxurious object : about 2000

My point is that for many audiophiles, including me, the LP12 sounded better than the similarly priced existing decks at the early 80's. I knew about the Japanese super turntables, mainly by reading l'Audiophile, and other exoteric tables - a friend owned a Goldmund Reference - but they were not easily available in Europe.

BTW, I also paid less for my used Forsell Air Force One than the current price for a top Sondek turntable.

XV-1 · Jan 23, 2013

microstrip said:
Turntable,

You can consider yourself a happy man. I was also looking for a long time for a L-07. And the day I found one for a nice price the seller did not want to ship out of his country ...

This comment from the site you refer says it all:

The Exclusive P3 and P3a were produced in fairly large amounts for such a high-priced luxurious object : about 2000

My point is that for many audiophiles, including me, the LP12 sounded better than the similarly priced existing decks at the early 80's. I knew about the Japanese super turntables, mainly by reading l'Audiophile, and other exoteric tables - a friend owned a Goldmund Reference - but they were not easily available in Europe.

BTW, I also paid less for my used Forsell Air Force One than the current price for a top Sondek turntable.

Yes , very happy MS. The P3 was the largest selling ultra high end table in Japanese history and the story goes they made little or no money on the table. For most of the large Japanese manufacturer's, these tables were an opportunity to show of their engineering expertise and get one up on each other.

Lots of the truly high end Japanese gear they kept from themselves. the Pioneer Exclusive brand being one of them. Now all the high end global Pioneer gear comes under the long established TAD branding.

When I bought my Lp12 in 1985 I was ecstatic. It was the LP12 that got my love of music intertwined with great HiFi gear.

BTW, I have seen a Forsell in the flesh a few years back - beautiful table.

70's and early 80's Japanese Component: How good were they?

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