What is it about the "jump factor" that only expensive speakers get close to "real"?

prerich · May 22, 2012

John72953 said:
I just experienced the "jump factor" (again). Eric Clapton's excellent vinyl pressing of Live At Budokan was playing, and I got up for a minute to check on something. As I went from one room to the other, and bypassing my audio room, I heard a voice and turned around. I could swear there was someone in my apartment. Instead it was the recording. Freaky, but pleasantly so.

I've experienced the jump factor on expensive and inexpensive speakers...but they all had one thing in common...very high sensitivity rates! The best jump factor I've experienced was from a pair of Legacy Whispers XD's one of the most dynamic speakers I've heard (yes, more dynamic to me than the Scanea 3.4 and the MBL 101E although these both have the jump factor

), the K-Horns, La Scalas, and Cornwalls (just about all big horns have the jump factor). Now here's the surprising thing....inexpensive speakers (under $2000 a pair - some are vintage) that have the jump factor also.... The Infinity SM-150 (102db), Snell E and E-II, the Klipsch Heresy ... this was a big surprise because it's such a small speaker but pair it with multiple subs and these things sound very close to the Whispers in the area of dynamics

. My mother was visiting me and she could have sworn that a person was playing live drums in my den - my brother fell out of his seat on the Legacy Drum demo - played through my modified Heresy I's. The jump factor can also be acheived in a properly treated room and properly set up speakers - that will help ensure the right delievery.

I also think that there is another type of jump factor - its not the dynamic - jump out of your seat, factor, but the surprise factor of a speaker. I listened to the Joseph Audio Pulsar...and almost every speaker had a hard time impressing me after that! I felt sorry for the Aerial 7T's because after listening to the Pulsars - they seemed perdestrian to me. I was looking for subwoofers in the room when Jeff Joseph just laughed and told me - "You're not going to find any...trust me". That was a jump factor of another kind for me. Sonics, dynamics, and real bass from a monitor

!

NorthStar · May 22, 2012

-----Hi Prerich

, and Welcome!

Bob

prerich · May 22, 2012

NorthStar said:
-----Hi Prerich

, and Welcome!

Bob

I'm humbled

and I thank you for such a grand welcome

NorthStar · May 22, 2012

---Well, you just joined the club on the first day after the May 20th, 2012 Solar Eclipse.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------^ Click on!

---------:b

Bill Hart · May 22, 2012

I am in clubs or other venues on average 2-3 times every week to hear live music. There is something about a kick drum that is very difficult to reproduce over a hi-fi system. It is a combination of that instant 'thwack' that moves air, plus a certain tonality of the drum head being hit that is quite distinctive when you hear it live. It is deep, fast and startling. And, it doesn't have to be miked through a PA to create that sound. A big dynamic speaker can give you the depth of the bass, but it sounds a little artifical, almost like you are hearing it in a well, and doesn't sound as quick and turning it up loud doesn't make it startle, it is just louder. I'm not sure about a horn being capable of that kind of depth, only because I'm not sure I've ever heard a big enough horn woofer in a home environment. Granted, large PA systems in big venues can do it, presumably because they are using pretty massive horn loaded woofer systems, and the rooms are large. But, that 'jump' or startle factor is one of the things that I find, at least on kick drum, separates reality from reproduction. Maybe some big dynamic systems with tons of power behind them are capable of it, but I haven't heard it done convincingly-

JackD201 · May 22, 2012

My favorite seats at rock concerts is lower box right behind the FOH console. I feel I am too old for the mosh pit

Anyhow, I get a good view of the spectrum analyzer. What you might see is shocking. It's almost a 40 degree slope downwards from bass to treble!

triode · May 23, 2012

JackD201 said:
Horns are King when it comes to Jump.

^ this.

GaryProtein · Nov 24, 2012

mep said:
I guess I need Caesar to define “jump factor.” My lowly Def Tech 7000SC speakers that only sold for $5498 per pair coupled with a pair of the matching Super Cube Reference subs that sell for $1899 each, I certainly have what I consider to be jump factor. There are a total of 9 drivers in each 7000SC speaker, one of which is a 14” sub powered by an 1800 watt amp. Sandy Gross has gone on record and said he will compare the bass quality of the 7000SC speakers to any speaker on the market costing up to $50K. Bold claim, but he was the designer. The Super Cube Reference subs have the same 14 sub and also have the same two 14” passive radiators also powered by 1800 watt amps. That’s a total of 7200 watts and four 14” active drivers and eight 14” passive radiators moving air. Add everything together, I have a total of 24 drivers moving air in my room.

When you hear a well recorded jazz player blowing on his horn as you say, it can certainly make you jump if you aren’t ready for it. So, $9296 buys you a total of 494 lbs of speakers with 24 drivers and 7200 watts of sub power. This represents lots of air moving and with it comes pressurization. If that doesn’t make you jump, it probably means you are a paraplegic.

Too bad Def Tech speakers are mainly marketed as part of a HT system and usually the speakers are shoved up against a wall and powered by an AVR. I don’t think tons of people have heard them in a two channel system driven by high-end gear. Oh, and they are rated for 1000 watts of input power as well. I have never heard thermal compression set in and nor have I ever heard the drivers distort.

Bottom line is that I don’t think you have to spend at least $50K to get a jump factor happening in your room.

You DON'T have to spend $50K to have the "jump factor." In fact, there are $50K speakers that DON'T have the jump factor. Of course you can spend more than $300K if you like for the ultimate.

A few years ago when I was in the market for another component, my dealer had a pair of Definitive Technology 7000SC speakers on the floor (without additional subs and well set up in the room) powered by a McIntosh C500C preamp and MC501 power amps and I was curious to hear how they sounded. Simply put, I was very impressed with the sound and those speakers were a relative bargain. They easily compared with speakers costing 5-10 times more. I do agree that it is unfortunate that Definitive Technology tends to market mostly as HT speakers because the 7000SC truly hold their own against many well respected speakers used in two-channel systems.

I also think the list FrantzM proposed included a lot of speakers the perform extremely well without totally breaking the bank.

mep · Nov 24, 2012

Gary-I don't know why, but I was all puckered up and waiting for the slam to come. I was thinking you were going to say the speakers sounded terrible and I must have large shrubs growing out of each of my ears. I'm glad you were able to hear them with some great equipment and form an opinion that is favorable. As much as I liked the Nola KOs at RMAF this year, it's not the same as hearing them in your own house with your own gear and frankly, I'm a little afraid that if I purchased the Nolas, I wouldn't like them as much as the BP7000SCs. The Nola KOs were demoed with $60K+ of ARC tube gear and expensive Nordost cables (the speaker cables alone are $30K I think). I don't have that at my house. I have owned two ARC LS-17s and an ARC VS115 amp, but I sent them all packing (and the VS115 sent my right bicep tendon packing as well).

But still, I keep thinking about the Nola KOs...

GaryProtein · Nov 24, 2012

mep, I'm a pretty straight shooter, and I call 'em as I see 'em. Where there's BS, I am not afraid to say so, but I stay out of some discussions because I am not an engineer and even my flameproof suit won't help me in some discussions.

I liked the 7000SC a lot. It isn't my favorite speaker, but it holds its own among the very good ones. My dealer tried on a few occasions to sell me some $40K speaker cables, of which I would need TWO PAIR for $80K. I declined. There's much better places to put that kind of money.

prerich · Jan 14, 2013

JackD201 said:
Horns are King when it comes to Jump. Vintage DIY isn't expensive in relative terms

Yes they are!!! Klipsch Heritage, Avantegard, and other horns are tops at the jump factor. I will place a dynamic direct radiator in that group also...The Legacy Foucus XD, Whisper XD, and from what I've been reading the Aeris will also fit. I heard the Whisper and the Focus last year and they reminded me of horns due to the wide dynamic range the produced and high sensetivity levels. In my room - my Cornwalls have a huge jump factor (and I don't have to turn it up loud to get it

).

Nightlord · Jan 14, 2013

Jump factor? Well, here's another thing to listen for that you can easily fool yourself about. If you compare two speakers and one has more jump factor than the other - what does that say? Does it reproduce the recording better, or has it some kind of coloration that accentuates the "jump"? One can't be too careful about painting oneself into a particular corner by listening very intensely for certain aspects... It should be able to play the dynamics on the media, not more, not less. It might get it to sound less thrilling in this aspects than some, but it will win in the long run as you won't get bored by added 'sameness'.

JackD201 · Jan 14, 2013

One would have to be rather dim to be fooled. All one has to do is run melodic along with dynamic tracks to hear the degree of sonic imprinting.

The system that is faithful to wider selections of recordings are the ones that have the ability to soothe as well as shock. Soothing and dynamically limited is far more common that one trick shock attack ponies. It isn't even a question of sonics where I'm concerned. If we want emotional connections, we should get the full gamut of emotions including anger, fear or even rage and not just the happy, fluffy or teary. There's nothing like contrast to bring all of these emotions into greater relief.

Nightlord · Jan 14, 2013

JackD201 said:
One would have to be rather dim to be fooled.

That statement in itself is what leads most people into being fooled. Believing they can trust themselves.

JackD201 · Jan 14, 2013

I trust myself enough to know when I can cross a street using only my senses, how about you?

Nightlord · Jan 14, 2013

JackD201 said:
I trust myself enough to know when I can cross a street using only my senses, how about you?

I could tell you a couple of issues with that too, but I'll keep most the OT away and just state that's a hundredfold (or more) easier task to perform for the brain.

Robh3606 · Jan 14, 2013

Jump factor? Well, here's another thing to listen for that you can easily fool yourself about.

Frankly you shouldn't have to listen for it. Compression is really easy to hear so is the lack of it. If your a Jump Factor Junky HT is your true calling in this day and age.

Rob

microstrip · Jan 14, 2013

Jump factor is not a speaker property, but can happen with the adequate speaker in the proper system and room - and mostly the proper recording. This last one is one the most dangerous aspects when choosing speakers with a limited listening time - you risk choosing a speaker just for those recordings. Later at home you start finding that with most other recordings the speakers are not so much enjoyable. Most proprietary demo CD's are mastered to sound better with their own brands - if you carry the great sounding B&W or Burmester samplers I can guess which speakers you will buy!

JackD201 · Jan 14, 2013

Nightlord said:
I could tell you a couple of issues with that too, but I'll keep most the OT away and just state that's a hundredfold (or more) easier task to perform for the brain.

Do you play sports?

JackD201 · Jan 14, 2013

microstrip said:
Jump factor is not a speaker property, but can happen with the adequate speaker in the proper system and room - and mostly the proper recording. This last one is one the most dangerous aspects when choosing speakers with a limited listening time - you risk choosing a speaker just for those recordings. Later at home you start finding that with most other recordings the speakers are not so much enjoyable. Most proprietary demo CD's are mastered to sound better with their own brands - if you carry the great sounding B&W or Burmester samplers I can guess which speakers you will buy!

I look at it as a system capability. Still the loudspeaker is usually the component with the performance ceiling when it comes to dynamics as well as the factor that most determines the choice of amplifier to begin with.

What is it about the "jump factor" that only expensive speakers get close to "real"?

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