What is it about the "jump factor" that only expensive speakers get close to "real"?

microstrip

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Here's an image of the Super Black Box opened up:

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/octave3/sbb2_big.jpg

You probably can tell me which kind of caps those are.

Bad luck, they look as conventional aluminum electrolytic capacitors - screw terminal in a classical PI arrangement with a small bypass film capacitor and a bleeding resistor and a protection diode. Good quality, but not fancy at all!:)

I ask myself what is the purpose of the PCB circuit.
 

DaveC

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Bad luck, they look as conventional aluminum electrolytic capacitors - screw terminal in a classical PI arrangement with a small bypass film capacitor and a bleeding resistor and a protection diode. Good quality, but not fancy at all!:)

I ask myself what is the purpose of the PCB circuit.

I think they're the JJ caps that are made for tube PS, they are electrolytic but optimized and bypassed by the WIMAs. After trying the Clarity TC I did not experiement with bypassing but others have told me similar results are possible, it just takes some experimentation.

The TC caps are very pricey, I wouldn't expect to see them used on commercial gear short of cost-no-object.
 

Al M.

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I think they're the JJ caps that are made for tube PS, they are electrolytic but optimized and bypassed by the WIMAs. After trying the Clarity TC I did not experiement with bypassing but others have told me similar results are possible, it just takes some experimentation.

The TC caps are very pricey, I wouldn't expect to see them used on commercial gear short of cost-no-object.

Thanks for the info.
 

microstrip

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I think they're the JJ caps that are made for tube PS, they are electrolytic but optimized and bypassed by the WIMAs. After trying the Clarity TC I did not experiement with bypassing but others have told me similar results are possible, it just takes some experimentation.

The TC caps are very pricey, I wouldn't expect to see them used on commercial gear short of cost-no-object.

As far as I know JJ capacitors are clearly marked as such and they do not sell screw types. But I can be wrong. The Wima MKS4 is cheap Metallized Polyester.

Some excellent manufacturers do not endorse the high-end (expensive) component route, but the solid and reliable industrial component philosophy. They prefer to spend their resources elsewhere and owners should be proud of it.

I used exactly the same brands and type of components three decades ago - I still have boxes filled with these red and green passive components.
 

Al M.

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Some excellent manufacturers do not endorse the high-end (expensive) component route, but the solid and reliable industrial component philosophy. They prefer to spend their resources elsewhere and owners should be proud of it.

Indeed. The results are what is important. In the end, it's all about the design and how the components are used. Sometimes expensive components do make a difference, sometimes they don't. Back in the day, in 1991, I had my Meridian 208 CD player 'upgraded' by Siltech with better components. Siltech claimed the modification would make the player so much better. The modification wasn't cheap, and didn't make a sonic difference, also according to the dealer where they directly compared the original and the modified version (they were honest enough to tell me).
 

DaveC

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As far as I know JJ capacitors are clearly marked as such and they do not sell screw types. But I can be wrong. The Wima MKS4 is cheap Metallized Polyester.

Some excellent manufacturers do not endorse the high-end (expensive) component route, but the solid and reliable industrial component philosophy. They prefer to spend their resources elsewhere and owners should be proud of it.

I used exactly the same brands and type of components three decades ago - I still have boxes filled with these red and green passive components.


EDIT... n/m yes, you're right. Not sure JJ has screw-type caps.

The Clarity TC caps are pricey but pretty close to the same price as similar caps intended for the wind turbine industry. They are likely identical to an industrial model with different branding. However, other amp designers have told me it's possible to achieve a similar result using bypassed electrolytics, and results are what matters. Also, price matters, and if you can achieve the same results at a lower cost this is always the way to go. For me, I have 3 tube power supplies that use all film caps and it was expensive, but the expense ends there. If I intended to sell my amps and cost was a factor I'd find a less expensive route.
 

the sound of Tao

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Frantz, sorry - many of the ones you listed just don't think they have the "perfect" jump factor! Now don't get me wrong, many of the speakers you list are very fine transducers, and we are talking about errors are of omission, so they are easier to ignore / suspend disbelief. Nevertheless, realism suffers. And to me - an admitted high end audio snob - is a big deal. And that's why peop

Also, a lot of the planars you bring up just don't have that jump factor. Magnepan is just not as fast at the Wilson or the Giya. It's impossible for a full range stat or planar to get up that SPL fast - and then drop off. Just laws of physics. Imagine Miles Davis blowing all out (fast!) or a sharp piano key stroke in the real world vs. on an audio system. It just doesn't sound real on most speakers. If you have a dealer in your area, do the check yourself. You may be surprised in what you learn if you a/b the Magnepan or CLX and a $50K + speaker, or you may subjectively not think it's a big deal. But that's why people pay big bucks for speakers, IMO... And I have a pair of Soundlabs in my home and LOVE them for acoustic type music and vocal.

For the record, I like Wilson, but they are not my favorites. I like Vivid Giyas and MBLs better. And the Vivid may have the best jump factor today of anyone.

First up Caesar, I agree with Frantz completely on his comment regarding the apparent perception of speed and panels versus cone and I also have not heard anyone claim cone speakers can generally outpace panels in this regard but opinions are just that.

You have Soundlabs at home? Do you drive these with your symphonic line amps? Would still love to know more details on this and your two other systems. Could you guide me to your system pics if you’ve already posted on these. It would just be good to know your references (and musical tastes) better when you make your regular subjective comments so we can all perhaps get a sense of your gear and music preferences better.

Would be even better if you shared pics of all your fantastic systems and rooms just because they sound so very tantalising.
 

bach_king

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The jump factor is one of the critical elements to fool us into suspending disbelief and getting into a state flow listening to music.

When it comes to speaker design, what is it about the "jump factor" that only very expensive speakers seem to get it right?


Hi Caesar,

Your question implies that there is some mysterious statistical correlation between the price of a product and sound quality. I suspect that given the factors which influence the price of a product, this is very dubious concept indeed. Nowadays there are few serious volume manufacturers of audio equipment particularly at the esoteric level to which I think you are referring and volume is a key determining factor here. The reality is that the most important things in determining price are, volume of production, size of business fixed costs and the the amount of profit (ROI) a business needs to generate to stay in business. The variable costs such as materials are generally a much less less important part of the mix.

If you make a high end product all of these cost elements are of necessity spread over a very small number of units and therefore have a huge influence on final selling price. Regarding material costs some time ago I was speaking to the M.D. of a major manufacturer and I made some suggestions about how he could improve his product. The cost of the improvements was £200-£300 per unit. This he said would add £2000 to £3000 to the retail price - a factor of 10. What this shows that if there is any correlation at all between cost and quality it is tenuous at best.

I think this might stir things up a bit so I will retire to my man cave, don my protective helmet and close the hatch!

Kind regards

David :)
 

Bso

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Sep 30, 2016
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Hi Caesar,

Your question implies that there is some mysterious statistical correlation between the price of a product and sound quality. I suspect that given the factors which influence the price of a product, this is very dubious concept indeed. Nowadays there are few serious volume manufacturers of audio equipment particularly at the esoteric level to which I think you are referring and volume is a key determining factor here. The reality is that the most important things in determining price are, volume of production, size of business fixed costs and the the amount of profit (ROI) a business needs to generate to stay in business. The variable costs such as materials are generally a much less less important part of the mix.

If you make a high end product all of these cost elements are of necessity spread over a very small number of units and therefore have a huge influence on final selling price. Regarding material costs some time ago I was speaking to the M.D. of a major manufacturer and I made some suggestions about how he could improve his product. The cost of the improvements was £200-£300 per unit. This he said would add £2000 to £3000 to the retail price - a factor of 10. What this shows that if there is any correlation at all between cost and quality it is tenuous at best.

I think this might stir things up a bit so I will retire to my man cave, don my protective helmet and close the hatch!

Kind regards

David :)

This "price class" mumbo jumbo is false consciousness.

However, I would agree not only diminishing returns come into play but I would submit one can spend all the money, etc. but still cannot defeat the laws of physics, materials science, and system design. Remember when Porsche was embarrassed by the lower cost model out-performing their flagship? As I recall this has happened more than once. Do hi-fi companies have such budgets? If anything the ones that are changing hands are on even stricter cost controls. Oh, and then there are ad budgets too. Many oxen to gore....
 

Al M.

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Hi Caesar,

Your question implies that there is some mysterious statistical correlation between the price of a product and sound quality. I suspect that given the factors which influence the price of a product, this is very dubious concept indeed. Nowadays there are few serious volume manufacturers of audio equipment particularly at the esoteric level to which I think you are referring and volume is a key determining factor here. The reality is that the most important things in determining price are, volume of production, size of business fixed costs and the the amount of profit (ROI) a business needs to generate to stay in business. The variable costs such as materials are generally a much less less important part of the mix.

If you make a high end product all of these cost elements are of necessity spread over a very small number of units and therefore have a huge influence on final selling price. Regarding material costs some time ago I was speaking to the M.D. of a major manufacturer and I made some suggestions about how he could improve his product. The cost of the improvements was £200-£300 per unit. This he said would add £2000 to £3000 to the retail price - a factor of 10. What this shows that if there is any correlation at all between cost and quality it is tenuous at best.

I think this might stir things up a bit so I will retire to my man cave, don my protective helmet and close the hatch!

Kind regards

David :)

All very true. I paid $ 2,300 for my Schiit Yggdrasil DAC. It is so cheap because it is direct sale on the web. Mike Moffat, the designer, said that if their products would sell through dealerships, the price would double to $ 4,600. Yet, he said, if you double the price, you get quarter the sales volume. Which in turn means that they could not get the parts at the discount they currently get because of high sales volume. In the end, this would mean that the Yggdrasil DAC would have to become a $ 6,000 item if it were to sell through dealerships. That's 2.6 x the $ 2,300 price.
 

Mark Seaton

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Here's the sad truth:

Most expensive speakers have great performance as prototypes, but once they get into production, there is no tweaking of the tuned ports on bass boxes. This is the one thing that can make a speaker jump. Most tuned ports are only off by a small amount, maybe a 1/4". If the tube were longer or shorter by this amount, the jump factor would increase significantly. I modded my own speakers and found this to be the case. They were off by 3/4". A slight lengthening of the port made all the difference.

This is why I believe ultra-expensive speakers should have their ports custom-tuned for each customer.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

I suspect what you're looking at is really a matter of driver parameter tolerances and the resulting response curve with the driver in the given volume. Unless construction is with hand tools, boxes will be highly consistent in volume, and ports should be similarly accurate. There may be some variation in stuffing, and any box behaves differently if there is significant enough temperature or humidity changes, but drivers tend to have much looser tolerances than some might think unless they are tested or set up for significantly tighter tolerances on voice coil windings and cone/gluing processes. There's a reason most talk about "matched pairs" and not matched to the reference.

If you are talking about in-room performance, then no question that the location in the specific room defines a transfer function and adjustment of the tuning might reduce peaking in the response as the speaker interacts with it. What all of this really points to is just how sensitive we are to the broad-band balance of a system, where very subtle tilts and shapes to the energy are very audible.
 

andromedaaudio

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The only time my speakers jump is when they see a 2 watt set;)

Emperical audio , sounds like BS to me sorry , do you actually think a 1/4 inch shorter or longer port can make a good speaker a great speaker ?
 

Leif S

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The only time my speakers jump is when they see a 2 watt set;)

Emperical audio , sounds like BS to me sorry , do you actually think a 1/4 inch shorter or longer port can make a good speaker a great speaker ?

Not in my experience. A quarter inch is nothing.
 

DaveC

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Not in my experience. A quarter inch is nothing.

+1...

I think, as Mark said, it's a result of in-room acoustic issues. It's so common to see wrong conclusions drawn from insufficient data... and not just in audio, it's an unfortunate element of human nature. I think it's Jimmy Fallon that has interviewed people on the street and asked for their opinion of a completely made-up scenario and a surprising amount of people are willing to give an opinion.
 

caesar

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Gentlemen,
Great discussion!

Audiophile luxury-premium pricing aside, let's not forget that a lot of "improvements" in high end audio (and that word is in quotes because improvements are so, so subjective!) are due to material sciences research which has resulted in stiffer enclosures and more rigid / responsive drivers. For small companies and small manufacturing volumes this ain't cheap!
 

morricab

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Gentlemen,
Great discussion!

Audiophile luxury-premium pricing aside, let's not forget that a lot of "improvements" in high end audio (and that word is in quotes because improvements are so, so subjective!) are due to material sciences research which has resulted in stiffer enclosures and more rigid / responsive drivers. For small companies and small manufacturing volumes this ain't cheap!

And yet paper drivers still deliver some of the best sound and are pretty much exclusive if you want high sensitivity.
 

morricab

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And yet paper drivers still deliver some of the best sound and are pretty much exclusive if you want high sensitivity.

Except for compression drivers of course, which are a different animal...
 

andromedaaudio

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Thiel accuton also has a range of very high sensivity drivers.
I can make a cone design of 100 db efficiency if i want to with ceramic Drivers.
Paper is great for midrange in the bass they act like fluffy. In my expirience
 

DaveC

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Thiel accuton also has a range of very high sensivity drivers.
I can make a cone design of 100 db efficiency if i want to with ceramic Drivers.
Paper is great for midrange in the bass they act like fluffy. In my expirience

Yeah, thin paper woofers add a lot of warm sounding distortion and transients aren't as "crisp".
 

andromedaaudio

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I like their tone colour but they bend far to much .
To get real pistonic power in a large cone you need a Honeycomb design OR something like that
 

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