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Thread: What is it about the "jump factor" that only expensive speakers get close to "real"?

  1. #121
    VIP/Donor [VIP/Donor] microstrip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by morricab View Post
    All you mentioned fail
    Not IMHO.

    BTW, it seems to me some people are defining "jump factor" as "sounding like a horn".

    The best I have ever listened in therms of "jump factor" (whatever it means ...) was the German Physics Gaudi (88dB/W)- everything else, horns included, paled when compared to them.
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  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by microstrip View Post
    Not IMHO.

    BTW, it seems to me some people are defining "jump factor" as "sounding like a horn".

    The best I have ever listened in therms of "jump factor" (whatever it means ...) was the German Physics Gaudi (88dB/W)- everything else, horns included, paled when compared to them.
    If you don't know what it means then how can you say the Gaudis have it?? I have heard them and while they certainly make a big sound they don't have the "breath of live" that is jump factor.
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  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by morricab View Post
    If you don't know what it means then how can you say the Gaudis have it?? I have heard them and while they certainly make a big sound they don't have the "breath of live" that is jump factor.
    "Jump factor" is extremely subjective . And in my opinion Gaudi's played loud really have the "breath of live" - I would not mind listening to the King Lyon opening theme played through them!

    One of our members owns the Empreror, perhaps he can also post on this subject.

    Soundlabs or XLFs, in the proper system and room, with some recordings, also have it.
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  4. #124
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    Detlof http://zero-distortion.org/techdas-k...o-zanden-lamm/

    While his system is amazing, I am not sure it jumps like a good horn.

    This thread did jump to life from four years ago, so I am not sure what jump factor is. Best jump, the way I interpret jump, was at Marty's (previous system, haven't heard the new one). And that was DSP with JL Gotham subs, spectral, and a fantastic room
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  5. #125
    Addicted to Best! PeterA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Lavigne View Post
    LOL, you are responding to 4+ year old posts......but it is an interesting subject.

    I agree that horns can have that immediacy and jump factor. to me the issue is a combination of speed and coherency in the mid-bass---lower mid range area. can the amp stay linear and supply the immediate needs of the speaker? and is there enough driver surface to have enough traction to fully move enough air with low enough driver excursion to stay linear? speakers showing amps tough loads will restrict the jump factor, and speakers without proper driver surface need too much excursion. will cabinet resonance impact accuracy in this frequency range?

    horns do address these areas nicely. but dynamic speakers can also if enough is done about it. maybe small 2 ways have certain advantages here too. so either mega buck or small. it's the in between dynamic speakers that are wanting in the 'jump' factor.

    so naturally more expensive speakers have more driver surface, lower excursion, and better cabinet construction. and they might be an easier load but price does not necessarily follow that issue.
    Mike, I agree that some small two way speakers can sound quite dynamic in the right system. However, they do not have much driver area, and the mid/woofer must have a lot of excursion, so how is this possible? My Minis are more dynamic that quite a few larger speakers that I have heard. I happen to think that the speaker/listener/room relationship has a lot to do with it as well as inert speaker cabinets. I'm sure there are other factors as well. Sharp, sudden, impactful bursts of energy are the challenge, but I have heard small speakers perform very well in this area given the right circumstances. I don't really know what those circumstances are though.

    Two LPs that I use to test "jump factor" are the Sheffield Drum Record and "For Duke". It helps when a sudden sound erupts out of near silence. And yes, the recording has to capture it.
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  6. #126
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    I think probably the biggest advantage horns have as far as Jump Factor is their higher efficiency. Many systems cannot track the peak levels because they are simply on the wrong side of the power curve. All you have to do is crunch the numbers and it becomes very obvious you are better off having speakers that have a higher than average SPL @ 1 watt is a big plus if you want them to have Jump Factor. A 6db difference and you are burning 1/4 the power. A 10db difference and the higher sensitivity system requires 1/10 the power. If you think it through with a 100 watt amp you are comfortably running at 10 watts vs. 100 Much better off at 10 watts much less stress for both amp and speaker.

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  7. #127
    Member Sponsor [WBF Founding Member] Mike Lavigne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Mike, I agree that some small two way speakers can sound quite dynamic in the right system. However, they do not have much driver area, and the mid/woofer must have a lot of excursion, so how is this possible? My Minis are more dynamic that quite a few larger speakers that I have heard. I happen to think that the speaker/listener/room relationship has a lot to do with it as well as inert speaker cabinets. I'm sure there are other factors as well. Sharp, sudden, impactful bursts of energy are the challenge, but I have heard small speakers perform very well in this area given the right circumstances. I don't really know what those circumstances are though.

    Two LPs that I use to test "jump factor" are the Sheffield Drum Record and "For Duke". It helps when a sudden sound erupts out of near silence. And yes, the recording has to capture it.
    i'm not exactly sure why some 2 ways seem to have that 'jump factor'; the better one's seem to trade more extension and authority for greater coherence and immediacy. maybe they do it at lower overall SPL levels when they are 'right sized' for the space they are used in. and agree it's not such a simple equation and likely involves listener preferences and room synergy.

    'For Duke' is also one I use all the time for 'live-ness/vividness', as well as the 45 of 'Ben Webster--Live at the Renaissance' "Georgia On My Mind". nothing like live recordings.
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  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by microstrip View Post
    "Jump factor" is extremely subjective . And in my opinion Gaudi's played loud really have the "breath of live" - I would not mind listening to the King Lyon opening theme played through them!

    One of our members owns the Empreror, perhaps he can also post on this subject.

    Soundlabs or XLFs, in the proper system and room, with some recordings, also have it.
    Yes, latest Sound Labs with Bass Focus Panels and Consummate Backplates reproduce music recordings that have a jump factor.

    I recognize two kinds, the macro-jump, often confused with "slam", and the micro-jump, that has to do with the technic of the player, the score and the instrument itself. Yes, the "macro" is there with DTD horn recordings, snare drums, and so on. This is easy to recognize although perhaps not that easy to reproduce well. It is sometimes un-nerving, and it can be just in about any kind of music.

    What is most pleasing to this music lover are the micro-jumps - they catch you out - are they supposed to be there? How well do you know the score or the interpreter? This is when you can tell that a piano is truly a percussion instrument, and not a string instrument. For example, when the pedals are being used in certain passages. Just a couple of notes - come from out of nowhere - it is as if they are poking at you. Wow. This "micro-dynamics" is analogous to that associated with some Decca, Dynavector, EMT, Ortofon, and strain-gauge cartridges. (I am listening to a xylophone right now in Carnival of the Animals on some "highest quality" streaming music service and it sounds like the impact occurs after the sound - bleah!)

    An example of micro-jump - the other night when I was playing an Angel recording of Agustin Anievas performing Chopin Improptus. I dialing in the VTA on my Analogue Artisan TT with the Gold Mongoose Arm using its SRA remote control. I knew I had it dialed in when in certain passages just a few notes jumped out at me. How wonderful a listening experience! (I was not trained on the piano so I am not exactly sure which pedals were or were not used.) Unexpected, I was not anticipating it; it took me unawares! It makes me want to run out and get the score for the piece and look to see how Chopin or the artist annotated it. I need to get more of Anievas' recordings. The spirit of all those involved in the recording, the piano; some call it pyrotechnics!
    Last edited by Bso; 01-06-2018 at 06:30 PM.

  9. #129
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    This thread has an astounding jump factor. Four years between notes is a long time.

    This is a very interesting topic but, as many have said, it "screams" for a definition of jump factor (pun intended). This is a very personal thing but to me jump factor is that which startles the human psyche, which to me is a function of the velocity of SPL rise at the listening position. To me this is also somewhat frequency dependent, the "startle" being inversely proportional to frequency for a given SPL rise velocity, but I am guessing this is a also personal thing.

    If you agree with this view it seams to me that amp speed (rise time, capacitance, instantaneous current etc.) are as important as a speaker's ability to launch the waveform with scale and velocity. With this definition it is hard for me to agree with comments here that jump factor is about realism or even fidelity and not about speed and ultimate SPL. The most startling events in my room come in passages where SPL goes from 0 db to 100 db instantaneously.
    Last edited by Pb Blimp; 01-07-2018 at 02:01 PM.
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  10. #130
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    I sold a pair of voyager speakers today( with the woolfelt upgrade ) , the guy brought his own amp as i Always ask .
    It was a " entry level " NAD amp , i was curious so we connected them to the XPE speakers , amazing how good it sounds , my advice is get the Jump factor / big speakers , and skip on the amp if nescessary.
    The 20 - 50 hz region is very important if you want the full jumpfactor (full range ) sound.

    Although roomsize / speakercoupling also plays a role off course
    Last edited by andromedaaudio; 01-07-2018 at 01:14 PM.

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