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Thread: What is it about the "jump factor" that only expensive speakers get close to "real"?

  1. #1

    What is it about the "jump factor" that only expensive speakers get close to "real"?

    The jump factor is one of the critical elements to fool us into suspending disbelief and getting into a state flow listening to music.

    When it comes to speaker design, what is it about the "jump factor" that only very expensive speakers seem to get it right?

  2. #2
    Addicted to Best! RogerD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caesar View Post
    The jump factor is one of the critical elements to fool us into suspending disbelief and getting into a state flow listening to music.

    When it comes to speaker design, what is it about the "jump factor" that only very expensive speakers seem to get it right?
    Define very expensive. I must admit the "jump" factor can be elusive,but I disagree that one needs to spend a ton of money to acheive it.
    Speakers: ParAcas Satellites ParAcas Dual 16 subwoofer Velodyne FSR18 Fulton Little Maestros Mission speakers
    Electronics: Agtron Platinum Mono Blocks Accuphase C200 preamp Accuphase P300 amplifer Parasound amplifier ParAcas Sierra electronic crossover
    Digital: Monarchy NM24 DAC Sony DVD Transport
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    Cables: NBS Statement,Pro,Master Cables, Nirvana Digital SPDIF Cable
    Turntable: Linn LP12 Technics 1200
    RTR: Ampex 350,351,440BC,MR70
    Studer C37 60hz,Crown 2-844,824

  3. #3
    Member Sponsor [WBF Founding Member] FrantzM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RogerD View Post
    Define very expensive. I must admit the "jump" factor can be elusive,but I disagree that one needs to spend a ton of money to acheive it.
    Thanks Roger ..

    I find the PSB Alpha B1 to possess that "Jump" factor at less than $300 a pair so ...
    Frantz
    __________________________________

    "For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."
    —Carl Sagan
    "Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction."
    — E. F. Schumacher
    (mis-attributed to A. Einstein)

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by RogerD View Post
    Define very expensive. I must admit the "jump" factor can be elusive,but I disagree that one needs to spend a ton of money to acheive it.

    Don't fall off your chair, Roger, but IMHO - $50K plus. Listen to a jazz player blow his horn, and how fast the SPLs get up there as he puts everything into it. Speakers below that range just do it right for me. Vivid Giya and Maxx 3 are best examples

  5. #5
    Member Sponsor [WBF Founding Member] FrantzM's Avatar
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    Caesar
    WOuld the MG 20.1 THe Soundlab ESL, THe Vandersteen Quattro , The Wilson Sasha, The VOn Sweikert VR5, The MArtin Logan Summit-X, The Zu Defintiion, the ... The Magnepan 3.7, The Magico Q3, The Rockport Mira, The (hesitation, list is sooo long), The MArtin Logan CLX, The Sanders ESL, And about 467 other pairs of speakers under 50K have that "Jump ' Factor .. Come On man!.. Ok you like the Wilson line of speakers, especially the upper echelon and that is OK but this is one of these threads that will NOT lead to anything that will help anyone either build a system or make an existing one better .. I could be wrong .. I doubt it .. lurking mode ON!
    Frantz
    __________________________________

    "For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."
    —Carl Sagan
    "Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction."
    — E. F. Schumacher
    (mis-attributed to A. Einstein)

  6. #6
    Addicted to Best! RogerD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caesar View Post
    Don't fall off your chair, Roger, but IMHO - $50K plus. Listen to a jazz player blow his horn, and how fast the SPLs get up there as he puts everything into it. Speakers below that range just do it right for me. Vivid Giya and Maxx 3 are best examples
    Caesar I hate when I fall of the chair.
    Speakers: ParAcas Satellites ParAcas Dual 16 subwoofer Velodyne FSR18 Fulton Little Maestros Mission speakers
    Electronics: Agtron Platinum Mono Blocks Accuphase C200 preamp Accuphase P300 amplifer Parasound amplifier ParAcas Sierra electronic crossover
    Digital: Monarchy NM24 DAC Sony DVD Transport
    Tuner: McIntosh MR78
    Cables: NBS Statement,Pro,Master Cables, Nirvana Digital SPDIF Cable
    Turntable: Linn LP12 Technics 1200
    RTR: Ampex 350,351,440BC,MR70
    Studer C37 60hz,Crown 2-844,824

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    Moderator Moderator treitz3's Avatar
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    I have heard 50K plus speakers that have sounded worse than a pair at 1/10 the cost, in a treated room nonetheless. Cost can mean very little in this hobby, at least from my point of view.
    In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

    The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to a good analogue reproduction.

    I post my own opinions except when posting as a moderator in green.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by FrantzM View Post
    Caesar
    WOuld the MG 20.1 THe Soundlab ESL, THe Vandersteen Quattro , The Wilson Sasha, The VOn Sweikert VR5, The MArtin Logan Summit-X, The Zu Defintiion, the ... The Magnepan 3.7, The Magico Q3, The Rockport Mira, The (hesitation, list is sooo long), The MArtin Logan CLX, The Sanders ESL, And about 467 other pairs of speakers under 50K have that "Jump ' Factor .. Come On man!.. Ok you like the Wilson line of speakers, especially the upper echelon and that is OK but this is one of these threads that will NOT lead to anything that will help anyone either build a system or make an existing one better .. I could be wrong .. I doubt it .. lurking mode ON!
    Frantz, sorry - many of the ones you listed just don't think they have the "perfect" jump factor! Now don't get me wrong, many of the speakers you list are very fine transducers, and we are talking about errors are of omission, so they are easier to ignore / suspend disbelief. Nevertheless, realism suffers. And to me - an admitted high end audio snob - is a big deal. And that's why peop

    Also, a lot of the planars you bring up just don't have that jump factor. Magnepan is just not as fast at the Wilson or the Giya. It's impossible for a full range stat or planar to get up that SPL fast - and then drop off. Just laws of physics. Imagine Miles Davis blowing all out (fast!) or a sharp piano key stroke in the real world vs. on an audio system. It just doesn't sound real on most speakers. If you have a dealer in your area, do the check yourself. You may be surprised in what you learn if you a/b the Magnepan or CLX and a $50K + speaker, or you may subjectively not think it's a big deal. But that's why people pay big bucks for speakers, IMO... And I have a pair of Soundlabs in my home and LOVE them for acoustic type music and vocal.

    For the record, I like Wilson, but they are not my favorites. I like Vivid Giyas and MBLs better. And the Vivid may have the best jump factor today of anyone.

  9. #9
    Addicted to Best! RogerD's Avatar
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    I have a pair of Fulton FMI speakers I bought new for 50 bucks and they image like crazy and are very dynamic. They happen to be my psycho speakers that I use with my Dynaudio customs. Only when I want to be scared out of my wits,do I play the soundtrack from the Red Violin.

    There are some speaker builders that in the past have done a exceptional job. Test drive some current less then $$$$ you might find a jewel. Also that jump factor is system dependent of course.
    Speakers: ParAcas Satellites ParAcas Dual 16 subwoofer Velodyne FSR18 Fulton Little Maestros Mission speakers
    Electronics: Agtron Platinum Mono Blocks Accuphase C200 preamp Accuphase P300 amplifer Parasound amplifier ParAcas Sierra electronic crossover
    Digital: Monarchy NM24 DAC Sony DVD Transport
    Tuner: McIntosh MR78
    Cables: NBS Statement,Pro,Master Cables, Nirvana Digital SPDIF Cable
    Turntable: Linn LP12 Technics 1200
    RTR: Ampex 350,351,440BC,MR70
    Studer C37 60hz,Crown 2-844,824

  10. #10
    Member Sponsor [WBF Founding Member] FrantzM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caesar View Post
    Frantz, sorry - many of the ones you listed just don't think they have the "perfect" jump factor! Now don't get me wrong, many of the speakers you list are very fine transducers, and we are talking about errors are of omission, so they are easier to ignore / suspend disbelief. Nevertheless, realism suffers. And to me - an admitted high end audio snob - is a big deal. And that's why peop

    Also, a lot of the planars you bring up just don't have that jump factor. Magnepan is just not as fast at the Wilson or the Giya. It's impossible for a full range stat or planar to get up that SPL fast - and then drop off. Just laws of physics. Imagine Miles Davis blowing all out (fast!) or a sharp piano key stroke in the real world vs. on an audio system. It just doesn't sound real on most speakers. If you have a dealer in your area, do the check yourself. You may be surprised in what you learn if you a/b the Magnepan or CLX and a $50K + speaker, or you may subjectively not think it's a big deal. But that's why people pay big bucks for speakers, IMO... And I have a pair of Soundlabs in my home and LOVE them for acoustic type music and vocal.

    For the record, I like Wilson, but they are not my favorites. I like Vivid Giyas and MBLs better. And the Vivid may have the best jump factor today of anyone.
    Caesar

    It will be the first time that I would have heard that a cone-based speaker is faster than an electrostat or a planar ribbon... Your position is unique and likely not shared with the majority of people on this board or others... I can't fight an opinion.. I do however know that yours is very far from what the facts can repeatedly demonstrate.
    Frantz
    __________________________________

    "For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."
    —Carl Sagan
    "Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction."
    — E. F. Schumacher
    (mis-attributed to A. Einstein)

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