Is CAT a serious audio company?

DEV

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You need to reread what I said previously. I am not saying you don’t have a legitimate complaint. I am not defending Ken Stevens and saying he runs a *perfect* company. Like I said, there is a difference between people who always find something to complain about versus people who have legitimate complaints. And since you had a pair of amps that you could hear the transformers hum from 30’ away and they had physical damage, I’d say you have a genuine complaint.

I would think however that any company whose products are all physically damaged by the time they leave the production facility and are unreliable to boot would have gone out of business long ago.

Okay but you got my blood going because those were some similar word choices made by Ken to me, I won't touch that last line because I have lots of first hand expereince due to being in his place numerous times and experienceing first hand never mind the stories told by the husband and wife doing the assembly.

Leaves me wondering how the heck he is still in business but it's because no one really post's the facts, if we had a site specific to this well eyes would be rolling and allot of these guys would be history.

Like I said manufactures need feed back to clean up their business, most put up with just way too much. It just seems to be the way in the hobby, why?
 

jazdoc

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At the risk of serious thread drift, I think it's important to recognize that many (?most?) high-end manufacturers are 1 or 2 person operations. Oft times, their audio business can't support their family and they have day jobs, not to mention the typical family obligations. Not an excuse for bad customer service, just a recognition of reality. If you are buying a bespoke audio product, you are essentially buying the person behind the product. IMO, you first need to be comfortable with that person before purchasing.

I can't speak to CAT from direct experience, but I have been impressed the few times I have heard the products. My experience with bespoke audio products has been a very happy one. Oh there have been the inevitable delays, but fortunately, the products have all been reliable and have brought countless hours of joy to me and my family. I was even a beta customer for the Experience Music LCR phono stage. When my unit was initially delivered, it was a little noisy. After some research the owner, Jeffrey Jackson worked on the unit in the field, paying his own way to come out and make things right.
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
At the risk of serious thread drift, I think it's important to recognize that many (?most?) high-end manufacturers are 1 or 2 person operations. Oft times, their audio business can't support their family and they have day jobs, not to mention the typical family obligations. Not an excuse for bad customer service, just a recognition of reality. If you are buying a bespoke audio product, you are essentially buying the person behind the product. IMO, you first need to be comfortable with that person before purchasing.

I can't speak to CAT from direct experience, but I have been impressed the few times I have heard the products. My experience with bespoke audio products has been a very happy one. Oh there have been the inevitable delays, but fortunately, the products have all been reliable and have brought countless hours of joy to me and my family. I was even a beta customer for the Experience Music LCR phono stage. When my unit was initially delivered, it was a little noisy. After some research the owner, Jeffrey Jackson worked on the unit in the field, paying his own way to come out and make things right.

Good point Mark

IIRC Ken was building his gear initially in his garage
 

jazdoc

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One more story...Joel Durand's tonearm business started off as a DIY project for his Rek-O-Kut turntable; just to learn and have fun.

One day, a friend came over for a listen and enthused that "If you ever make this a commercial product, I'll buy the first one!" Soon thereafter, Durand Tonearms was born. I think Joel still sticks needles in my voodoo doll likeness on a daily basis ;-0
 

DEV

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Sorry but allot of that doesn't sit well with me and I don't agree.

1. I most defiantly spoke with Ken first, as the norm with any business the usual is to receive only positive otherwise why in the heck would one order something.

2. Why bull-s..t saying "you are Ken now saying this to me" we will have the amps ready for 12 weeks if in fact you know this isn't going to happen? I know why because this is how you run your business in general. In my business I could no way get away with that so why is everyone allowing these manufactures to do so. I see a responces above suggesting such and it was exceptable. A couple of days okay but weeks on end and more and then ship not proper tested or QC'd is just bluntly wrong.

3. I don't care how big your shop is or how many people are there, I'm paying huge money for a product and when I do such all I want is such in return along with if there are issues to take care of such A.S.A.P.
Ken doesn't do this period, at least when I owned my amps a few years ago and others afterwards sharing their first hand experiences with me.

It really is a shame.

I don't personally want any of that product in my home, there's lots out there to choose from.
 

jazdoc

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DEV,

Absolutely agree with Steve. Obviously you had a terrible experience and my comments in no way were meant to belittle your frustration. Just trying to point out that there are small manufacturers who try and take care of their customers (even though they may not always meet their deadlines)....
 

DaveyF

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Jul 31, 2010
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DEV, I have owned CAT gear for many years and have known Ken for about the same. I am VERY surprised that Ken would have treated you in the way that you describe. He has always been a perfect gent to me and given me great customer service. Only thing that I will say about Ken, is that he can "talk your ear off":rolleyes:
I do agree with Mark, when he says that Ken is like many of our high-end manufacturer's, in that they really are amateurish and 'garage based' compared to the Sony's of the world. None of this excuses the treatment that you got from Ken, however, I would like to hear his side of the story and plan to do so.

I realize that you will not easily be placated by whatever Ken can say or do now, that is the problem when one gets what one perceives/receives as poor service, but are you open to hearing his side of the story?

In customer service, which is an industry that i am involved in, there is ALWAYS an instance wherein something can and does go wrong, the only way that things can get better is for all parties to be reasonable and accommodating of their fellow human beings....after all, we are all fallible. :eek:
 

DEV

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Oct 19, 2011
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Hi DaveyF, thanks for sharing your experience. I don't want this to get tristed around because it's not about him as a person, it's just how he runs his business period.

I never got into half of what actually took place and look at it as a page in a book that I read and have since put away, just another chapter in life.

I'll put these questions to you then;

#1 If you were Ken and someone was having issues with your product and this person is telling you that originally the transformers were quiet but now can hear the transformer humming away 30ft or so away and you say to the customer that they are being to fussy and that you never said the transformers in your amps are dead quiet. If my responce was we are talking 30 or more feet away I can hear them. "This is now the second time arround"

If I contacted you by email and by phone to make arrangements to bring them back to you and you don't reply for weeks on end, nor anyone else. Is this right?

I ended up driving for hours originally from Canada to his location in the US to pick them up due to two reason, one because they were months late and secondly finding out he ships these huge EXPENSIVE delicate heavy amps in cardboard boxes "can you believe it yes cardboard boxes" Not wooden crates or flight cases but friggen cardboard. These list at $40K

So I didn't want to take a chance of them getting damaged from shipping because these were suppose to be the last amps for my MBL SPEAKERS.

#2 It's your product that you originally sent with issues and you want me to pay for shipping back to you, some 400 lbs of amps which won't be cheap. That's just wrong, possibly down the road due to a warranty issue but not right from the get go.
Due to me not wanting to take any chances of them being damaged and/or delayed due to shipping I personally drove them to his location. Have to have a friend assist in packing due to their weight and size along with placing them into my vehicle and same upon receipt.

Pay for gas and tow's both ways never mind the time involved, 3 1/2 one way if there is no traffic.

Ken admits saying we won't pay for them to come here but will pay for them to be shipped back, doesn't sit well with me but okay.

Ken did not reimburse me one sent for anything, I asked and got nothing. So what do you think about that. I would think these would cost at least $4-500 minimum one way with having a shipping account with discounts in place and then you have insurance on top of that. When I called cheapest I could get was just under $1k plus another $600 for insurance so total of approx $1600.00 one way.

Ken did admit he pays for shipping back and that would have been 4 times x amount of money's.

So when you do talk to him kindly have him send me $2K, I'll even settle for less.

#3 I had lost confidence in him and his business as a whole while being at his place of manufacture, never mind his work station with the florecent lighting above with the huming transformer. Knowledge of endless product .... won't go there.

I asked for him to just refund the dealer back my money so I could move on with life, he would not do so. I sold them and lost money, so while talking with him ask for that reimbursement also @ $8K PLEASE! so we are now up too $10K

If he's all that and has all of these customers then why not do this, the amps are in his possession.

So how would you feel?

I'm not the only one, there are lots of others but pitty them becuase they had to deal with shipping, we aren't just talking about these specific amps either, there use to be numerous thread postings on Audigon but have vanished.

I don't want to start name dropping but I have my folder with such and Ken very well knows.

Also his amps are a hot rod design and can blow up, have no protection, boards can be taken out just with a run away tube and on.

Sorry but my house insurance would walk away if such was found in my home, most people are naive when it comes to this. When I heard a huge bang and sparks and smoke in my room thanks goodness I was right there and only marks were left on my wall and no other and that my $70K speakers or any other gear was not damaged.
 
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Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
I ended up driving for hours originally from Canada to his location in the US to pick them up due to two reason, one because they were months late and secondly finding out he ships these huge EXPENSIVE delicate heavy amps in cardboard boxes "can you believe it yes cardboard boxes" Not wooden crates or flight cases but friggen cardboard. These list at $40K

Audio Research double packs all of their equipment in cardboard boxes and it is some of the best I have seen
 

andromedaaudio

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My krells came in cardboard boxes as well ,list price here 24000 euros or something , placed in foam and cardboard around it also (double cardboard .)
My levinson also came in card board as did the sme turntable .
I wish i would read some positive expiriences with the poweramps , i might (up) grade someday
 

DEV

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Oct 19, 2011
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I'm not totally against the card board packing but specifically for these amps, the weight is off balanced etc. It always amazes me when I receive exspensive amps and they come in such, these guys need to learn from other like MBL, Boulder.

Less face it shipping can be a desaster, the way things are handled. How much more would it cost to have a wooden crate with all that same foam protection inside or even a flight case made. At the cost of the more premium pces not much and I would gladly pay.

I just received a AMR 77.1 in a flight case, allot less costly than what we are speaking of. The flight case has dings all over the place but guess what, the item inside is safe and sound.

I won't say CAT is alone here in relation to the packaging, my VAC Statement 450's came in a double box form.

Come on manufactures wake up already, why risk the product getting damaged. They need to go and work and even just over see what really takes place at these shipping places specially when such is being shipped a long distance.
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
They did not however I have owned the Krell 750 Mcx amps which came single packed in a cardboard box, and ARC Ref 600 Mk lll which came in a cardboard box as did my JL Audio Gotham subs. Look I see and understand your point. Sure I prefer a wooden crate but I am not in control of how the mfr ships his gear. I was merely pointing out that CAT isn't unique in how it packages and sends its gear
 

DEV

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Okay but at the same time really the packaging isn't the main topic here and I was just conveying some more info. and you decided to extract and open up another discussion , as per the OP has asked "Is CAT a serious audio company?" and "business-wise? Service-wise?"

My answer is below with first hand experience.

Steve why don't you own CAT amps or pre? have you ever had either driving your Wilson's? if so what and what was your experience.

As I mentioned the amps in my opinion were okay but nothing special, I know of many who have mostly "had" his pre-amp and it seems to come and go. I give credit to someone designing and producing a end product but it's just how he operates his business as a whole and his lack of service sucks big time.

So anyone reading now you know and have been warned, do what you want doesn't concern me. :D
 

MylesBAstor

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Apr 20, 2010
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Okay but at the same time really the packaging isn't the main topic here and I was just conveying some more info. and you decided to extract and open up another discussion , as per the OP has asked "Is CAT a serious audio company?" and "business-wise? Service-wise?"

My answer is below with first hand experience.

Steve why don't you own CAT amps or pre? have you ever had either driving your Wilson's? if so what and what was your experience.

As I mentioned the amps in my opinion were okay but nothing special, I know of many who have mostly "had" his pre-amp and it seems to come and go. I give credit to someone designing and producing a end product but it's just how he operates his business as a whole and his lack of service sucks big time.

So anyone reading now you know and have been warned, do what you want doesn't concern me. :D

Steve's close friend however has CAT gear :)
 

mep

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My beef with the CAT preamp is different than DEV’s beef with how Ken Stevens runs his company and builds and services his products. Well, sort of. I absolutely hate having the outboard power supply hard-wired to the preamp. The preamp is heavy as hell anyway and it makes it a bitch when you install the preamp into a cabinet and remove it. I’m not buying that using a mil-spec connector on one end or the other would have caused a detriment to the sound. But then, I don’t worry about which way my fuses are pointed in the fuse holder.

The volume control settings are too course which makes It hard to find a Goldilocks spot on the volume control. I don’t think the available gain for the phono stage is sufficient for what I consider to be low output MC cartridges. Some people swear it is, and others swear it isn’t. Mine was the Sig MKII version that did away with the 12AU7 tubes and replaced them with 6922 tubes. I never fell in love with this preamp. I sold it and never looked back.
 

MylesBAstor

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Apr 20, 2010
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The volume control settings are too course which makes It hard to find a Goldilocks spot on the volume control. I don't think the available gain for the phono stage is sufficient for what I consider to be low output MC cartridges. Some people swear it is, and others swear it isn't. Mine was the Sig MKII version that did away with the 12AU7 tubes and replaced them with 6922 tubes. I never fell in love with this preamp. I sold it and never looked back.

That was one of my friend's major beefs with his CAT preamp!!! He finally put another high quality volume control in his preamp, though he eventually ended up selling his CAT preamp altogether later on.
 

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