Buying new vs used - the economics

mep said:

Those backward steps are a bitch.

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Indeed - but sometimes is not fault of an specific piece, but lack of synergy in the system, for example - I was not that enthusiastic with my Gryphon Bel Canto the first time I had it, now it is singing beautifully.

i buy used when i can for all the reasons mentioned here. when i was really into audio years ago id buy 20 pieces or more a year and turn most of it and keep a few. along the way i discovered a few alarming realities with used gear ususally 10 yrs old or more. solid state devices evolve rapidly and supplers dont hold inventory so repairs can be imposible at times. there are many metal case T03 and darlignton type outputs transistors no longer available. levinson, rowland, spectral and many others have potted modules that are unrepairable, if the mfr doenst have one you're SOL. I had a Klyne preamp with bad relay, Stan didnt have anymore and the mfr stopped making them. it rendered my unit w/o the phase inversion and balanced capability i wanted. ive had same issues with early Krell (KSA/KMA fan-cooled series) and Classe (DR-2/DR-3) - essentialled rendering the units as doors stops or fancy paper weights.

CD transports have similar risks, i passed on a killer deal for reference transport, one-owner in mint cond. with boxes, papers, etc. later to find out the guy who bought it had problems 5-mos later and krell had no more replacements transport mechanisims nor did any NOS ones exisit. if you're lucky you can find a used pro version of the correct model on ebay and canabalize it - but you're just buying time at this point.

tube gear is much different, the circuits are inherently simple, just a collection of caps and resistors, save for maybe few SS regulators theres nothing that cant be fixed or substitued with other parts.

bottom line, its a good idea first to contact the manufacturer to see if they still support the model you're contemplating and if it contains any crucial devices that are in short supply or non-existent.

Very good advice Rob. This is one area that ARC stands out from the crowd. Their logistical support of their products rivals the miliatary's logistic support.

I would say the same for CJ. I know CJ fans who have 15 year old products which were brought back to life by CJ...and with the latest Teflon capacitors, etc...essentially becoming a model that does not exist...to give the customer a great repair/upgrade service with later tech than was originally available when the model was originally designed.

puroagave said:

i buy used when i can for all the reasons mentioned here. when i was really into audio years ago id buy 20 pieces or more a year and turn most of it and keep a few. along the way i discovered a few alarming realities with used gear ususally 10 yrs old or more. solid state devices evolve rapidly and supplers dont hold inventory so repairs can be imposible at times. there are many metal case T03 and darlignton type outputs transistors no longer available. levinson, rowland, spectral and many others have potted modules that are unrepairable, if the mfr doenst have one you're SOL. I had a Klyne preamp with bad relay, Stan didnt have anymore and the mfr stopped making them. it rendered my unit w/o the phase inversion and balanced capability i wanted. ive had same issues with early Krell (KSA/KMA fan-cooled series) and Classe (DR-2/DR-3) - essentialled rendering the units as doors stops or fancy paper weights.

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Your post shows that if you buy used old equipment you will be depending on the technical support of helpful and sometimes imaginative service people. I have access to a skilled technician that has sometimes successfully solved the type of problems you enumerate - e.g. adapting a relay using a daughter board, fitting capacitors with different terminals, He keeps a few 30 years old Krell's of several friends still working.

BTW, Rowland still manufacture, on demand, modules for their first preamplfiiers and electronics.

As you say the biggest problem are programmable devices such as micro-controllers and laser readout mechanisms. If they fail and the manufacturer can not supply them anymore you have to dump the equipment, Also at some time the price of keeping old equipment working can be too high.

amirm said:

From the movie, Back to School: [discussion in the college bookstore as the son tries to buy a used book and Rodney's character who is rich tries to stop him.]

Son: What's wrong with used books?

Rodney Dangerfield - They've already been read.

. I try to buy new if I possibly can. I make exceptions of course. but as a rule, I tend to buy new because it is easier and more reliable path.

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As I recall Rodney was rich and picking up the tab.

microstrip said:

Your post shows that if you buy used old equipment you will be depending on the technical support of helpful and sometimes imaginative service people. I have access to a skilled technician that has sometimes successfully solved the type of problems you enumerate .

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A careful, experienced and honest audio tech is gold. Period. If you have older SOTA equipment, and they can fix it...what is that worth when one considers the alternative to buy similar quality equipment (is buy new...at retail prices)?

microstrip said:

Your post shows that if you buy used old equipment you will be depending on the technical support of helpful and sometimes imaginative service people. I have access to a skilled technician that has sometimes successfully solved the type of problems you enumerate - e.g. adapting a relay using a daughter board, fitting capacitors with different terminals, He keeps a few 30 years old Krell's of several friends still working.

BTW, Rowland still manufacture, on demand, modules for their first preamplfiiers and electronics.

As you say the biggest problem are programmable devices such as micro-controllers and laser readout mechanisms. If they fail and the manufacturer can not supply them anymore you have to dump the equipment, Also at some time the price of keeping old equipment working can be too high.

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i dont like to throw good money after bad. for me, if the repair costs equals half of what its worth I'll cut my loses and move on. when I was buying and flipping gear the reward was trying lots of great gear and not taking the depreciation and hoping to not get stuck with some crazy repair bill. once in a while i got a goose egg, you take your lumps on those. i dont think i ever owned something that i felt i needed to keep forever, but i do sometimes buy the same thing over and over again like the quads. variety is the spice of life and high end audio certainly has variety

Very interesting thread. Never thought about the obsolescence of solid state gear. OTOH, well-designed tube gear is relatively easy to service....

Very good point Doc. There are lots of SS parts that go obsolete every day in this world. If you’re a big customer, you will get a notice from the OEM telling you they are going out of production and they will give you a chance to make a “life time buy” of a particular part. The military is faced with that all of the time. There are vendors whose entire business model is based on buying up parts that are going obsolete or have gone obsolete so they become the only game in town and they can charge whatever they want. Sometimes there are replacement parts available that perform the same function(s), but they are not form and fit compatible.

With regards to tube technology, I can’t think of a single piece of gear from the dawn of the audio age that couldn’t be kept operating today. It might entail a few minor circuit changes, but your gear doesn’t have to become a boat anchor. It’s just the nature of the two technologies.

The problem seems to me to be the same for both SS and Tubes ... Parts from tubes go obsolete as well.. Heck some highly sought after and expensive tubes gear are even based on no-longer-manufactured tubes.. Same with SS I suppose.. It is very rare the parts that vanishes from the surface of the planet...
I encountered this with a remote control IR receiver sensor that was no longer manufactured, bought 20 of these that was the minimum order ... I needed just one!!

Frantz-You may not be able to keep an old piece of tube gear completely *stock*, but you damn sure can keep it operational.