Non Oversampling DACs versus High Rez Hype

BFlowers

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Apr 23, 2010
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Went to the CES in search of a new DAC to deal with high rez formats. Went to many rooms and heard some good, some great, but mostly mediocre sound. I am interested in the groups comments regarding 2 of the rooms that I found to be outstanding. The Ypsilon room and the Zanden room both were exemplary. One thing that they had in common was non oversampling DACs with tube analog sections. As many high rez DACs as I listened to at length (Weiss medea, BAlabo, DCS, Soulution, Boulder, Playback, EMMLabs, etc) none of them held a candle to these 2 even under suboptimal show conditions. My impression so far with high rez digital is that it sounds slightly better than CD (if you listen hard enough), but is not fundamentally different. These 2 units were different. What gives? Is high rez overhyped? FWIW, I have listened to high end high rez vs CD in excellent conditions and still drew a similar conclusion.
 

fas42

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You might like to look at the current Redbook thread: there's some interesting elements of understanding still not clearly delineated in this whole format "war" thing. My own, current experiemnts are showing me that sound files even in mediocre MP3 format, when resampled, upsampled in software, as a separate exercise can playback dramatically better even on extremely ordinary, consumer hardware. With this, hi-res sounds better than CD quality, but it's the same file!

So far, my take is that amount of electronic, especially computing style, fiddling required to produce an audio signal at the time of playback is what counts, which is why the non oversampling won, for you. Others will have different opinions ...

Frank
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Jun 30, 2010
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My impression so far with high rez digital is that it sounds slightly better than CD (if you listen hard enough), but is not fundamentally different.

I think this is correct....sometimes. So if you prefer the sound of analog to the sound of digital, hi res isn't going to fundamentally change that preference for you. An NOS dac with a tube output section will, however, bring digital much closer to your preference.

Tim
 

microstrip

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May 30, 2010
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Unhappily I was never able to compare CD versus HiRez in fair and optimal conditions. I am using an all ARC system, including a CD8 and I have been hosting a DAC8. Listening to HiRez in the DAC8 sounds more defined, what some people would call a better sound. However, listening to a CD in the CD8 sounds, IMHO and that of many friends, much more enjoyable than the Hirez. This can only mean that the tube output stage of the CD8 does a better job than the DAC8 in my system - nothing else.

Five punctual aspects to consider

1. The tube in the CD8 output does not add significant distortion to the sound - I measured it with a 24bit 192kHz sound card and the HFN technical test CD and the specs of noise and distortion are as good as other solid state units.

2. Distributors of high quality CD players have brought several higher prices SS units to evaluate in my system, and none could match the CD8 in my system.

3. As you, I am not pleased with the sound of music servers in my system. Even the one I have assembled with the help of friendly and helpful members of WBF sounds analytical and non-involving in the long term.

4. I carried a few blind auditions of PC server versus CEC TLX1 belt drive CD transport using a few friends as guinea pigs and they preferred the CEC. Perhaps my server is not a good one.

5. Opinions will depend on systems and my system is not a scientific one : it measures the same (excellent irrespective of type ) after three minutes warmup and one hour later, but sounds much better after one hour.
 

puroagave

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Sep 29, 2011
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Went to the CES in search of a new DAC to deal with high rez formats. Went to many rooms and heard some good, some great, but mostly mediocre sound. I am interested in the groups comments regarding 2 of the rooms that I found to be outstanding. The Ypsilon room and the Zanden room both were exemplary. One thing that they had in common was non oversampling DACs with tube analog sections. As many high rez DACs as I listened to at length (Weiss medea, BAlabo, DCS, Soulution, Boulder, Playback, EMMLabs, etc) none of them held a candle to these 2 even under suboptimal show conditions. My impression so far with high rez digital is that it sounds slightly better than CD (if you listen hard enough), but is not fundamentally different. These 2 units were different. What gives? Is high rez overhyped? FWIW, I have listened to high end high rez vs CD in excellent conditions and still drew a similar conclusion.

so which NOS dac impressed you? there arent that many around: 47 Lab, MHDT, Audio Mirror, and few other obscure pieces and DIY kits.
 

puroagave

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so which NOS dac impressed you? there arent that many around: 47 Lab, MHDT, Audio Mirror, and few other obscure pieces and DIY kits.

i just looked up the Zanden and Ypsilon list prices. i guess thats why i never gave them a second thought LOL. My sole experience with NOS dacs are the MHDT Havana and Stokholm - both very organic and dare i say this "analog" sounding.
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Jun 30, 2010
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i just looked up the Zanden and Ypsilon list prices. i guess thats why i never gave them a second thought LOL. My sole experience with NOS dacs are the MHDT Havana and Stokholm - both very organic and dare i say this "analog" sounding.

Yes, dare. This digital lover has exactly the same impression of the few NOS dacs he has heard; analog-sounding.

Tim
 

rbbert

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I have the NuForce DAC-9 (recently reviewed at UltraAudio.com), very affordable, very nice.
 

egidius

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the NEW Bow ZZ8!

Went to the CES in search of a new DAC to deal with high rez formats. Went to many rooms and heard some good, some great, but mostly mediocre sound. I am interested in the groups comments regarding 2 of the rooms that I found to be outstanding. The Ypsilon room and the Zanden room both were exemplary. One thing that they had in common was non oversampling DACs with tube analog sections. As many high rez DACs as I listened to at length (Weiss medea, BAlabo, DCS, Soulution, Boulder, Playback, EMMLabs, etc) none of them held a candle to these 2 even under suboptimal show conditions. My impression so far with high rez digital is that it sounds slightly better than CD (if you listen hard enough), but is not fundamentally different. These 2 units were different. What gives? Is high rez overhyped? FWIW, I have listened to high end high rez vs CD in excellent conditions and still drew a similar conclusion.

I don't exactly know where this fits in, but I just have received my refurbished Bow technologies ZZ8 with the new generation DAC MK III in it. Its based on non oversampling 1702 chips, so I seem to recall..

Cannot say too much yet, just one week here, but immediate reaction :))
e
 

DonH50

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Jun 22, 2010
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ADI is (or was last I checked) making "NOS" (i.e. non delta-sigma) DACs (though technically they can oversample) and I am sure folk are using them. Modern filter design and higher sampling rates have gone a long way in reducing the problems of the earlier OS DACs. I think a lot of OS DAC problems are related to poor filters, too low a sampling rate, and poor analog implementation. That is a guess on my part.
 

Husk

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Apr 20, 2010
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There is a review on the new Concert Fidelity Dac 040 on the Gon. It also is a non oversampling tube design and the review pretty much parrells what BFlowers said in his thoughts on the Zanden and Ypsilon rooms at CES.
 

Steve Williams

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BFlowers

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Apr 23, 2010
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Tough to argue what I was hearing was taste related. I couch my comments with the disclaimer that I have not heard one of these in my system yet. I will have the full Ypsilon digital front end in my system next week and will report. In a hobby where there are few absolutes, this was one of them. Strings absolutely did not have a steely quality, brass absolutely didn't have a painful bite, etc. However, what I was hearing may have more to do with the tube analog stage than the non oversampling.
 

rockitman

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I use a dac that allows the option of upsampling or playing at native resolution (PS Audio PW Mk2) that bypasses the sample rate convertor circuit all together. To my ears, native is best (for my dac) regardless of source file resolution.
 

DonH50

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Jun 22, 2010
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Note in this context that upsampling and oversampling are two entirely different things.

"Oversampling" to the average audiophile implies a delta-sigma DAC. "NOS" implies a Nyquist DAC operating at the same rate as the samples are presented. Technically, either architecture can be used in an oversampling regime, but that's an argument for another day...

"Upsampling" is a procedure to "fill in" the samples between the actual (real) samples when a higher sampling frequency than used to record the original samples is used. this implies an algorithm that "guesses" (interpolates, perhaps nonlinearly) at information not present in the original samples, and thus may guess wrongly.
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Tough to argue what I was hearing was taste related. I couch my comments with the disclaimer that I have not heard one of these in my system yet. I will have the full Ypsilon digital front end in my system next week and will report. In a hobby where there are few absolutes, this was one of them. Strings absolutely did not have a steely quality, brass absolutely didn't have a painful bite, etc. However, what I was hearing may have more to do with the tube analog stage than the non oversampling.

This is limited, of course, because I haven't heard what you've heard and I don't know what you really mean by "steely quality" or "bite," but I know strings and brass up front and personally and they often do have a steely quality and a painful bite, and what you're hearing could very easily be about taste. Many audiophiles don't want to hear the most intrusive elements of live sound in their reproduction; they judge the reproduction as harsh. Sometimes it's the instruments themselves, as heard by the microphones, that are harsh.

Tim
 

MylesBAstor

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Apr 20, 2010
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so which NOS dac impressed you? there arent that many around: 47 Lab, MHDT, Audio Mirror, and few other obscure pieces and DIY kits.

Audio Note too.
 

fas42

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Jan 8, 2011
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I don't know what you really mean by "steely quality" or "bite," but I know strings and brass up front and personally and they often do have a steely quality and a painful bite, and what you're hearing could very easily be about taste. Many audiophiles don't want to hear the most intrusive elements of live sound in their reproduction; they judge the reproduction as harsh. Sometimes it's the instruments themselves, as heard by the microphones, that are harsh.

Tim
But there's "steely", and then there's ugly, metallic. My experiments with the new wave track demonstrated this beautifully, resampling at higher and higher rates reduced that irritating, fatiguing edge with each iteration. If it's obvious with an everyday, low cost converter not having to work so hard then I would suggest it's a fairly common phenomenon.

But then again, Tim, your hearing may really be different from mine: I would be hard pressed to say that the sound of a real instrument is ever harsh; intense, overwhelming, yes, but not harsh ...

Frank
 

FrantzM

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Apr 20, 2010
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This is limited, of course, because I haven't heard what you've heard and I don't know what you really mean by "steely quality" or "bite," but I know strings and brass up front and personally and they often do have a steely quality and a painful bite, and what you're hearing could very easily be about taste. Many audiophiles don't want to hear the most intrusive elements of live sound in their reproduction; they judge the reproduction as harsh. Sometimes it's the instruments themselves, as heard by the microphones, that are harsh.

Tim

You have touched somthing here .... I have heard many audiophiles complain about the sound of some violin recording as or bright ... The violin is a bright .. often strident instrument when heard live ... Brass at time have that painful "bite"> The components that do reproduce these as they are heard in real life, are often deemed "sterile", "clinical" and my favorite "lacking in emotion"... Many highly regarded components soften those edges to the point that the sound the sound of those instruments is unrecognizable . Yet some audiophiles start attributing all kind of qualities to this kind of unfaithful reproduction .. I will spare you the epithets but romantic comes to mind ...

Often I wonder if the High End is about High Fidelity?
 

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