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Thread: Jplay : Wow

  1. #31
    I believe you are saying is that digital is perfect. I agree.

    Your comment about "mixed domain" must refer to analog.

    All media players operate with digital data. The "mixed domain" begins at the DAC. No media player controls what happens at that point. The media player doesn't even know what is there. It only talks to the software interface (digital) that communicates with the DAC. WASAPI or ASIO, for example. Up to and including this interface, there is no "mixed domain". It is purely digital.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by jriver View Post
    I believe you are saying is that digital is perfect. I agree.

    Your comment about "mixed domain" must refer to analog.

    All media players operate with digital data. The "mixed domain" begins at the DAC. No media player controls what happens at that point. The media player doesn't even know what is there. It only talks to the software interface (digital) that communicates with the DAC. WASAPI or ASIO, for example. Up to and including this interface, there is no "mixed domain". It is purely digital.
    Yes but your blind spot is that you don't recognise that there could be some noise riding on the digital signal that has no effect on digital processing because it is not sufficient to cause a bit misinterpretation but is sufficient at the D/A stage to effect the translation. So how does different playback software sound different - because each one has different noise riding on the digital signal. Jplay addresses this, I believe. You seem to ignore it?
    Manufacturer digital products www.Ciunas.biz
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  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by jkeny View Post
    ... there could be some noise riding on the digital signal that has no effect on digital processing because it is not sufficient to cause a bit misinterpretation but is sufficient at the D/A stage to effect the translation.
    The players have no ability to affect any timing or other issues with the digital signal. They just fill the buffers of the interface and let the hardware do its job.

    If the hardware interface isn't perfect, that's an issue between the PC and the DAC, and it would affect the sound of both. A good DAC should take care of the problems.

    I have no desire to convince you, but I think you're spreading information that is not accurate, so I thought I would answer.

    I wish you a nice weekend.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by jriver View Post
    The players have no ability to affect any timing or other issues with the digital signal. They just fill the buffers of the interface and let the hardware do its job.

    If the hardware interface isn't perfect, that's an issue between the PC and the DAC, and it would affect the sound of both. A good DAC should take care of the problems.

    I have no desire to convince you, but I think you're spreading information that is not accurate, so I thought I would answer.

    I wish you a nice weekend.
    I was wondering when you would come out with this next over-used term - it's usually expressed as "devices that are adequately designed" but I see you have gone a step further & inadvisedly used the term "if the hardware isn't perfect". So please nominate what hardware that you know of is perfect and also please demonstrate it's measured perfectness for us. This is again the problem of those who seem to think in binary - something is either perfect or it's broken - the real world is a place without these absolutes & the real world is where we reproduce our music. Dealing with this imperfection is what sets apart the great products from the me-too meh products

    Have a good weekend too but please stop spreading your ill-formed & ill-advised ideas - particularly when you set out to criticise a product which actually worked in synergy with your own & wasn't in competition with you. You really have done yourself & continue to do yourself and your product no favours. Your comments reveal an inadequate view of the market your product targets.
    Last edited by jkeny; 04-06-2012 at 03:51 PM.
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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by jkeny View Post
    So how does different playback software sound different - because each one has different noise riding on the digital signal. Jplay addresses this, I believe. You seem to ignore it?
    One thing is obvious, sending a signal to a DAC is done using a 100% analog wave.
    But can software affect this wave?
    An explanation might be the way the data is processed.
    Is it done in bursts or is it throttled. The burst might induce periodic jitter, the throttle a constant jitter level.
    However, if this is true I want to see measurements e.g the eye pattern when playing software A or software B.
    Personally I don’t mind any claim about improved sound quality by any piece of software but if it does something I like to see at least a measurable difference.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent Kars View Post
    One thing is obvious, sending a signal to a DAC is done using a 100% analog wave.
    But can software affect this wave?
    An explanation might be the way the data is processed.
    Is it done in bursts or is it throttled. The burst might induce periodic jitter, the throttle a constant jitter level.
    However, if this is true I want to see measurements e.g the eye pattern when playing software A or software B.
    Personally I don’t mind any claim about improved sound quality by any piece of software but if it does something I like to see at least a measurable difference.
    I put forth one possible mechanism whereby the D/A conversion could be effected - getting measurements for such is another problem altogether! There seems little desire from the objectivists to do so as they "know" it's bit-perfect & therefore perfect. The subjectivists hear the difference & don't feel the need to prove that they do. Hence the impasse. There are some that are neither Obj or Subj (the real world remember not the binary one) but I can't see this happening until we know what to measure & at what level. In the meantime, just enjoy the music

    Just to complete this - asynchronous USB is theoretically meant to make the USB receiving device immune to the PC but it isn't immune as can be demonstrated! So how does this happen?
    Last edited by jkeny; 04-06-2012 at 05:01 PM.
    Manufacturer digital products www.Ciunas.biz
    "The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by jkeny View Post
    I put forth one possible mechanism whereby the D/A conversion could be effected - getting measurements for such is another problem altogether! There seems little desire from the objectivists to do so as they "know" it's bit-perfect & therefore perfect. The subjectivists hear the difference & don't feel the need to prove that they do. Hence the impasse. There are some that are neither Obj or Subj (the real world remember not the binary one) but I can't see this happening until we know what to measure & at what level. In the meantime, just enjoy the music.
    This test is on my TODO list! I have just been too lazy to do it. The issue is that my Audio Precision analyzer does not go very low in jitter measurements. So it may not work out but I like to see if there are gross enough jitter levels to be detected this way.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by jkeny View Post
    There seems little desire from the objectivists to do so as they "know" it's bit-perfect & therefore perfect.
    Soory but I strongly disagree.
    This is not "objectivist", the "bits=bits" philosophy is plain ignorance as it leaves the timing out of the equation.
    I do think it is almost trivial to get bit perfect output.
    To get timing perfect output is a bigger problem.
    Then there are third order effects like the “noise” you mentioned.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent Kars View Post
    Soory but I strongly disagree.
    This is not "objectivist", the "bits=bits" philosophy is plain ignorance as it leaves the timing out of the equation.
    I do think it is almost trivial to get bit perfect output.
    To get timing perfect output is a bigger problem.
    Then there are third order effects like the “noise” you mentioned.
    I agree with you about the timing - I was just reflecting the attitude I had perceived a couple of posts above & it seems to be prevalent viewpoint in the more extreme obj's - but you are correct ignorance not = objectivist & I apologise to all objs
    Yes, bit-perfect output is a given by now in computer audio or at least should be & as you say is trivial to achieve.
    Jitter & noise are so inextricably linked that I'm not sure which is most important. I believe that we categorise a lot of distortion into the jitter bin but in reality it may well be CM noise - sibilance for instance. Now, it may be that the ultimate agent is jitter at the DAC but the cause is CM noise at the receiver? All these things need to be teased out to have a full grasp of at least one aspect of computer audio. We are at the discovery phase at the moment so guesses & claims & denials, etc are par for the course as witnessed here.
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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by amirm View Post
    This test is on my TODO list! I have just been too lazy to do it. The issue is that my Audio Precision analyzer does not go very low in jitter measurements. So it may not work out but I like to see if there are gross enough jitter levels to be detected this way.
    Look forward to any results you might present but I don't know if you will find it in jitter levels? It's true that if there is an audible difference then it should be seen in the analogue output but what measurement do we use & what level are we viewing down to. I contend that FFT analysis may not be the correct test method as it uses multiple samples to average over time - will it for instance show the time-smearing of different digital filters? The focus in audio measurement still is rooted in the frequency domain (except when speakers are being measured) - I believe this focus has to change & perhaps new measurements introduced.
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    "The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin.

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